OZrocker wrote:
Guys, what udoi said makes some sense to me. I believe it's 'four horsemen of the apocalypse' in Italian or something like that, could be wrong.
Ybodonk wrote:
Plazas win was very similar to Virenque and Michael Rasmussens victories, and with the spectacular crack of dumolain, i was almost back to the 90s and early 00s. Nostalgic, hope for more of this next season.
Oh, please no. While I love seeing a long-range attack work, the last thing cycling needs is to go back to those dark days.
Those dark days were the most exciting in cycling from a viewing perspective,
I don't agree that they were the best from a viewing perspective, watching riders push themselves to the limit of human performance is good viewing, the 90's early 00's was like watching which doctor had the best program, it wasn't cycling nor human performance but more like watching robots.... It was horrible! I know that riders are still doping but it's not full mutant programs that created unrealistic performances and was just unhealthy
Hells 500 Crew and 6 x Everester
Don Rd Launching Place
Melbourne Hill Rd Warrandyte
Colby Drive Belgrave South
William Rd The Patch
David Hill Rd Monbulk
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Guido Mukk wrote:
sad ..
I did not expect him to win..but 6th. seems to be little unfair after this 3week fight.
He committed suicide yesterday by not putting at least a couple of men in the huge break up the road like Astana and Movistar did, crazy really. But I guess he was feeling so confident that he might've felt that he didn't need to.
I agree that putting some riders up the road might of helped when he got gapped because he did have to work alone for way to long, Giant don't have any real experience in how to ride GC over 3 weeks so it's understandable they didn't try it. Dumoulin did an amazing job to finish 6th and I guess now he's getting a better understanding of what his body can handle, clearly he does have good a recovery for a 3 week race but even with a stronger team over the next couple of seasons it's hard to see him being a major player GC wise but I guess he's earnt the right now to try and be that rider
Hells 500 Crew and 6 x Everester
Don Rd Launching Place
Melbourne Hill Rd Warrandyte
Colby Drive Belgrave South
William Rd The Patch
David Hill Rd Monbulk
Lakeside Drive Emerald https://www.everesting.cc/hall-of-fame/
OZrocker wrote:
Guys, what udoi said makes some sense to me. I believe it's 'four horsemen of the apocalypse' in Italian or something like that, could be wrong.
Ybodonk wrote:
Plazas win was very similar to Virenque and Michael Rasmussens victories, and with the spectacular crack of dumolain, i was almost back to the 90s and early 00s. Nostalgic, hope for more of this next season.
Oh, please no. While I love seeing a long-range attack work, the last thing cycling needs is to go back to those dark days.
Those dark days were the most exciting in cycling from a viewing perspective,
I don't agree that they were the best from a viewing perspective, watching riders push themselves to the limit of human performance is good viewing, the 90's early 00's was like watching which doctor had the best program, it wasn't cycling nor human performance but more like watching robots.... It was horrible! I know that riders are still doping but it's not full mutant programs that created unrealistic performances and was just unhealthy
Well watching riders like Bartoli, Berzin, Tafi, Ballerini, Chiappucci, Pantani, Ullrich, Rijs, Rominger, Armstrong, Gianetti, Indurain, Zulle, Museeuw, Bugno, Ugroumov etc from this period for me was fantastic viewing and made for a great spectacle, I never really cared if riders were doped or not and still don't really. and has no influence on whether I like a rider or not.
The value of the sport will always be tarnished with doping and I don't ever see it coming to an end either, as riders will always strive to improve themselves however unfair it might be and team/sponsor pressure will always be there as well.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 13-09-2015 14:39
Guido Mukk wrote:
sad ..
I did not expect him to win..but 6th. seems to be little unfair after this 3week fight.
He committed suicide yesterday by not putting at least a couple of men in the huge break up the road like Astana and Movistar did, crazy really. But I guess he was feeling so confident that he might've felt that he didn't need to.
I agree that putting some riders up the road might of helped when he got gapped because he did have to work alone for way to long, Giant don't have any real experience in how to ride GC over 3 weeks so it's understandable they didn't try it. Dumoulin did an amazing job to finish 6th and I guess now he's getting a better understanding of what his body can handle, clearly he does have good a recovery for a 3 week race but even with a stronger team over the next couple of seasons it's hard to see him being a major player GC wise but I guess he's earnt the right now to try and be that rider
They might not have experience of riding GT's as such but to get men in such a huge break I would imagine is fairly text book stuff, as Dumoulin and Giant 99% knew that Astana would try every trick in the book to win the race on stage 20.
For example when this break went down the road with Astana men in and men from nearly all the other teams, alarm bells must've surely rang.
OZrocker wrote:
Guys, what udoi said makes some sense to me. I believe it's 'four horsemen of the apocalypse' in Italian or something like that, could be wrong.
Ybodonk wrote:
Plazas win was very similar to Virenque and Michael Rasmussens victories, and with the spectacular crack of dumolain, i was almost back to the 90s and early 00s. Nostalgic, hope for more of this next season.
Oh, please no. While I love seeing a long-range attack work, the last thing cycling needs is to go back to those dark days.
Those dark days were the most exciting in cycling from a viewing perspective,
I don't agree that they were the best from a viewing perspective, watching riders push themselves to the limit of human performance is good viewing, the 90's early 00's was like watching which doctor had the best program, it wasn't cycling nor human performance but more like watching robots.... It was horrible! I know that riders are still doping but it's not full mutant programs that created unrealistic performances and was just unhealthy
Well watching riders like Bartoli, Berzin, Tafi, Ballerini, Chiappucci, Pantani, Ullrich, Rijs, Rominger, Armstrong, Gianetti, Indurain, Zulle, Museeuw, Bugno, Ugroumov etc from this period for me was fantastic viewing and made for a great spectacle, I never really cared if riders were doped or not and still don't really. and has no influence on whether I like a rider or not.
The value of the sport will always be tarnished with doping and I don't ever see it coming to an end either, as riders will always strive to improve themselves however unfair it might be and team/sponsor pressure will always be there as well.
Just because something has has always happened a certain way doesn't mean it has to stay that way, it's unhealthy and should be fought against at every opportunity. I don't care if cycling needs a total tear down but it shouldn't be something that's just accepted, young healthy people get involved in cycling (all pro sports) and then feel forced into doping to stay involved, it's unhealthy and just plain wrong, it's beyond me why anybody would be okay with this.
Edited by Strydz on 13-09-2015 14:53
Hells 500 Crew and 6 x Everester
Don Rd Launching Place
Melbourne Hill Rd Warrandyte
Colby Drive Belgrave South
William Rd The Patch
David Hill Rd Monbulk
Lakeside Drive Emerald https://www.everesting.cc/hall-of-fame/
Guido Mukk wrote:
sad ..
I did not expect him to win..but 6th. seems to be little unfair after this 3week fight.
He committed suicide yesterday by not putting at least a couple of men in the huge break up the road like Astana and Movistar did, crazy really. But I guess he was feeling so confident that he might've felt that he didn't need to.
I agree that putting some riders up the road might of helped when he got gapped because he did have to work alone for way to long, Giant don't have any real experience in how to ride GC over 3 weeks so it's understandable they didn't try it. Dumoulin did an amazing job to finish 6th and I guess now he's getting a better understanding of what his body can handle, clearly he does have good a recovery for a 3 week race but even with a stronger team over the next couple of seasons it's hard to see him being a major player GC wise but I guess he's earnt the right now to try and be that rider
They might not have experience of riding GT's as such but to get men in such a huge break I would imagine is fairly text book stuff, as Dumoulin and Giant 99% knew that Astana would try every trick in the book to win the race on stage 20.
For example when this break went down the road with Astana men in and men from nearly all the other teams, alarm bells must've surely rang.
I totally agree with you and what I was trying to say was the lack of experience that Giant have is why they didn't do what is a textbook move and send riders up the road to help the team leader when he most needed it, basic mistakes like that happen when a team/riders don't have that GT experience.
Hells 500 Crew and 6 x Everester
Don Rd Launching Place
Melbourne Hill Rd Warrandyte
Colby Drive Belgrave South
William Rd The Patch
David Hill Rd Monbulk
Lakeside Drive Emerald https://www.everesting.cc/hall-of-fame/
Guido Mukk wrote:
sad ..
I did not expect him to win..but 6th. seems to be little unfair after this 3week fight.
He committed suicide yesterday by not putting at least a couple of men in the huge break up the road like Astana and Movistar did, crazy really. But I guess he was feeling so confident that he might've felt that he didn't need to.
I agree that putting some riders up the road might of helped when he got gapped because he did have to work alone for way to long, Giant don't have any real experience in how to ride GC over 3 weeks so it's understandable they didn't try it. Dumoulin did an amazing job to finish 6th and I guess now he's getting a better understanding of what his body can handle, clearly he does have good a recovery for a 3 week race but even with a stronger team over the next couple of seasons it's hard to see him being a major player GC wise but I guess he's earnt the right now to try and be that rider
They might not have experience of riding GT's as such but to get men in such a huge break I would imagine is fairly text book stuff, as Dumoulin and Giant 99% knew that Astana would try every trick in the book to win the race on stage 20.
For example when this break went down the road with Astana men in and men from nearly all the other teams, alarm bells must've surely rang.
I totally agree with you and what I was trying to say was the lack of experience that Giant have is why they didn't do what is a textbook move and send riders up the road to help the team leader when he most needed it, basic mistakes like that happen when a team/riders don't have that GT experience.
They don't have GT experience, but we have neither, and everyone of us would've put some guys in the break.
But thats not Dumoulin's fault, that their DS not having a clue how to ride a stage like that GC-wise. They should have put Degenkolb and Craddock in the break as a safety net, especially when they are 9 man strong and Astana send 2 and Movistar 4 up the road. That freaking basic knowledge, even if you havent tried anything else than setting a sprint train, stagehunting and riding coupled classics. I dont think he woulda have retained his podium, but it had been hella close had he had Degenkolb and Craddock atop of the Morcuera. Maybe they coulda pulled him up to Aru/Landa? Its not unrealistic. You can say its 20/20 hindsight, but it really isnt since its a basic procedure by all teams having a GC-guy up front.
OZrocker wrote:
Guys, what udoi said makes some sense to me. I believe it's 'four horsemen of the apocalypse' in Italian or something like that, could be wrong.
Ybodonk wrote:
Plazas win was very similar to Virenque and Michael Rasmussens victories, and with the spectacular crack of dumolain, i was almost back to the 90s and early 00s. Nostalgic, hope for more of this next season.
Oh, please no. While I love seeing a long-range attack work, the last thing cycling needs is to go back to those dark days.
Those dark days were the most exciting in cycling from a viewing perspective,
I don't agree that they were the best from a viewing perspective, watching riders push themselves to the limit of human performance is good viewing, the 90's early 00's was like watching which doctor had the best program, it wasn't cycling nor human performance but more like watching robots.... It was horrible! I know that riders are still doping but it's not full mutant programs that created unrealistic performances and was just unhealthy
Well watching riders like Bartoli, Berzin, Tafi, Ballerini, Chiappucci, Pantani, Ullrich, Rijs, Rominger, Armstrong, Gianetti, Indurain, Zulle, Museeuw, Bugno, Ugroumov etc from this period for me was fantastic viewing and made for a great spectacle, I never really cared if riders were doped or not and still don't really. and has no influence on whether I like a rider or not.
The value of the sport will always be tarnished with doping and I don't ever see it coming to an end either, as riders will always strive to improve themselves however unfair it might be and team/sponsor pressure will always be there as well.
Just because something has has always happened a certain way doesn't mean it has to stay that way, it's unhealthy and should be fought against at every opportunity. I don't care if cycling needs a total tear down but it shouldn't be something that's just accepted, young healthy people get involved in cycling (all pro sports) and then feel forced into doping to stay involved, it's unhealthy and just plain wrong, it's beyond me why anybody would be okay with this.
From a moral standpoint I don't agree with it but I fully accept it as the norm. The problem with doping is the constant need to punish the offender when the real problem actually comes from the team and the sponsor in their rider expectations. For a lot of riders they're faced with no result then no contract, so for them it makes sense to dope to secure their future.
The sport needs a shake-up from the top down rather than bottom up by busting guilty riders, but I don't see any of that happening anytime soon.
Riis123 wrote:
But thats not Dumoulin's fault, that their DS not having a clue how to ride a stage like that GC-wise. They should have put Degenkolb and Craddock in the break as a safety net, especially when they are 9 man strong and Astana send 2 and Movistar 4 up the road. That freaking basic knowledge, even if you havent tried anything else than setting a sprint train, stagehunting and riding coupled classics. I dont think he woulda have retained his podium, but it had been hella close had he had Degenkolb and Craddock atop of the Morcuera. Maybe they coulda pulled him up to Aru/Landa? Its not unrealistic. You can say its 20/20 hindsight, but it really isnt since its a basic procedure by all teams having a GC-guy up front.
I agree if Giant had put a couple of men up the road there was a good chance that Tom would've still made the podium, but like any sport tactical errors were made.
Does anybody remember any Lotto NL riders up in the break as they could've assisted as well?
Riis123 wrote:
But thats not Dumoulin's fault, that their DS not having a clue how to ride a stage like that GC-wise. They should have put Degenkolb and Craddock in the break as a safety net, especially when they are 9 man strong and Astana send 2 and Movistar 4 up the road. That freaking basic knowledge, even if you havent tried anything else than setting a sprint train, stagehunting and riding coupled classics. I dont think he woulda have retained his podium, but it had been hella close had he had Degenkolb and Craddock atop of the Morcuera. Maybe they coulda pulled him up to Aru/Landa? Its not unrealistic. You can say its 20/20 hindsight, but it really isnt since its a basic procedure by all teams having a GC-guy up front.
I agree if Giant had put a couple of men up the road there was a good chance that Tom would've still made the podium, but like any sport tactical errors were made.
Does anybody remember any Lotto NL riders up in the break as they could've assisted as well?
There was one LottoNL in the break but he didn't wait. In fact LottoNL has done nothing to help Dumoulin/Giant so the commotion was for nothing.
Riis123 wrote:
But thats not Dumoulin's fault, that their DS not having a clue how to ride a stage like that GC-wise. They should have put Degenkolb and Craddock in the break as a safety net, especially when they are 9 man strong and Astana send 2 and Movistar 4 up the road. That freaking basic knowledge, even if you havent tried anything else than setting a sprint train, stagehunting and riding coupled classics. I dont think he woulda have retained his podium, but it had been hella close had he had Degenkolb and Craddock atop of the Morcuera. Maybe they coulda pulled him up to Aru/Landa? Its not unrealistic. You can say its 20/20 hindsight, but it really isnt since its a basic procedure by all teams having a GC-guy up front.
I agree if Giant had put a couple of men up the road there was a good chance that Tom would've still made the podium, but like any sport tactical errors were made.
Does anybody remember any Lotto NL riders up in the break as they could've assisted as well?
There was one LottoNL in the break but he didn't wait. In fact LottoNL has done nothing to help Dumoulin/Giant so the commotion was for nothing.
Probably because we PCM.Daily members told them that its wrong...
Riis123 wrote:
But thats not Dumoulin's fault, that their DS not having a clue how to ride a stage like that GC-wise. They should have put Degenkolb and Craddock in the break as a safety net, especially when they are 9 man strong and Astana send 2 and Movistar 4 up the road. That freaking basic knowledge, even if you havent tried anything else than setting a sprint train, stagehunting and riding coupled classics. I dont think he woulda have retained his podium, but it had been hella close had he had Degenkolb and Craddock atop of the Morcuera. Maybe they coulda pulled him up to Aru/Landa? Its not unrealistic. You can say its 20/20 hindsight, but it really isnt since its a basic procedure by all teams having a GC-guy up front.
I agree if Giant had put a couple of men up the road there was a good chance that Tom would've still made the podium, but like any sport tactical errors were made.
Does anybody remember any Lotto NL riders up in the break as they could've assisted as well?
There was one LottoNL in the break but he didn't wait. In fact LottoNL has done nothing to help Dumoulin/Giant so the commotion was for nothing.
Probably because we PCM.Daily members told them that its wrong...
I can't imagine Tom Dumoulin wanting to win by cheating with Lotto NL riders, he seems like a guy with a certain amount of morality.
Worth over £8000.
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