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Which PCM Version to use for the next season
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| roturn |
Posted on 13-04-2021 09:02
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Team Manager
Posts: 22246
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As said in other threads already, this poll is not necessarily the final outcome for next year as other factors might be needed to check, but surely helps a lot to see how all managers think about it.
The Changes thread/suggestions show lots of AI information for newer versions, which not everyone has. By voting for a game version there are different reasons. One might be the hope it improves and one might be the knowledge that specific things likely improve, while not many things go into the wrong side with new problems.
It would be good if before voting, some AI knowledge from the changes thread is taken account of as a poll full of "hopefully it`s getting better" might in the end lead to worse experiences.
For specific reasons I can`t really give PCM21 a chance as it`s not out yet and just like in the past it doesn`t make sense to change to a game, which is not patched fully or tested at least a bit.
And going back doesn`t make much sense neither as it would just lead to lots of other issues, mostly calendar/stage file issues and there were similar discussions with other games e.g. PCM15, where there were lots of reasoning why changing to PCM18. |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 13-04-2021 09:05
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World Champion
Posts: 14562
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Could some people who have experience with PCM18 vs. the newer versions post their thoughts here as well?
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| roturn |
Posted on 13-04-2021 09:08
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Team Manager
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Before things get too big though, please no long discussion here. Those, who really know, can make a short list of pro and contra but please, keep the discussion in the other thread to have it a bit more tidy and findable.
I might delete/move some posts otherwise to keep this thread here tidy to help with finding the needed "lists" fast, while the other thread already has most of the discussion, so not needed to repeat most of those here.
Also this thread shouldn`t be used for new ideas/suggestions. |
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| quadsas |
Posted on 13-04-2021 09:12
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2518
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19 shouldn't even be an option imo, as it's just 18 with pro cyclist revamp for my experience. I am always for an update, so I voted for 20, but one thing right of the bat that needs to be checked - breakaways. I've seen it a tad too often a complete dominant win by a breakaway in both classics and stage races.
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| SotD |
Posted on 13-04-2021 14:04
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World Champion
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I have opted for a change. Not that staying with PCM 18 really is an issue for me. I have tried adjusting ever so slightly to the game mechanics, and a lot of the bad stuff from the first season have been handled beatifully. Some riders continue to over/underperform, but in all honesty most of that have happened in the past aswell, and probably will continue to do so again.
So for me a switch is to create some sort of "clean plate" where we can kick all those bad history aside and focus on the game again. The past two seasons have been really hard to come by I think and I would assume even more so for the reporters. By switching we may not solve a damn thing, but we atleast tried to do something regarding the negative atmosphere around the Man-Game. If the game is equally bad, too bad. If it's better - Great. If it's worse, then I guess we'll have to reinvent the game as I doubt it will become better in the future.
So while this input isn't exactly what roturn wants, it's all I have to offer really.
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 13-04-2021 14:08
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
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I won't officially vote until I know more. But when we changed to PCM 18 and stayed with it, a lot of the reason was to keep the game moving forward and adapting for posterity's sake. Certainly the same reasoning should apply here.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| redordead |
Posted on 13-04-2021 14:10
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4881
Joined: 18-10-2017
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I'd also like to know more about 19/20 before voting, but if I had to make a choice, I would say we move forward rather than stay.
"I am a cyclist, I may not be the best, but that is what I strive to be. I may never get there, but I will never quit trying." - Tadej Pogačar
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| cio93 |
Posted on 13-04-2021 14:26
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World Champion
Posts: 10845
Joined: 29-10-2007
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Before I consider what to vote for myself, I want to say that if we decide on a version change, I'm happy to chip in to fund a handful of copies for reporters who don't own the new game yet.
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 21-11-2024 18:55
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| valverde321 |
Posted on 13-04-2021 16:06
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As far as I know, classics are a lot better on 20 vs 18. Everything else is more or less the same, just that aggressive AI that works well for classics doesnt for mountain stages, so if you attack early in a mountain stage that rider is just setting themselves up to crack later on.
Also breakaways are pretty much only ever about 3 riders and only get a 1min gap and are brought back halfway through every stage with the exception of a few bugged stages where they gain an infinite amount of time and win by 50mins or where in GTs large breaks are allowed to form and actually win a stage like normal. Essentially PCM 18 to 20 goes from one extreme for breakaways, to the other extreme. '
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| quadsas |
Posted on 13-04-2021 16:16
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2518
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valverde321 wrote:
As far as I know, classics are a lot better on 20 vs 18. Everything else is more or less the same, just that aggressive AI that works well for classics doesnt for mountain stages, so if you attack early in a mountain stage that rider is just setting themselves up to crack later on.
Also breakaways are pretty much only ever about 3 riders and only get a 1min gap and are brought back halfway through every stage with the exception of a few bugged stages where they gain an infinite amount of time and win by 50mins or where in GTs large breaks are allowed to form and actually win a stage like normal. Essentially PCM 18 to 20 goes from one extreme for breakaways, to the other extreme. '
I found breakaways to be pretty normal with the exception of massive time gain ones.
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| valverde321 |
Posted on 13-04-2021 16:41
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World Champion
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quadsas wrote:
valverde321 wrote:
As far as I know, classics are a lot better on 20 vs 18. Everything else is more or less the same, just that aggressive AI that works well for classics doesnt for mountain stages, so if you attack early in a mountain stage that rider is just setting themselves up to crack later on.
Also breakaways are pretty much only ever about 3 riders and only get a 1min gap and are brought back halfway through every stage with the exception of a few bugged stages where they gain an infinite amount of time and win by 50mins or where in GTs large breaks are allowed to form and actually win a stage like normal. Essentially PCM 18 to 20 goes from one extreme for breakaways, to the other extreme. '
I found breakaways to be pretty normal with the exception of massive time gain ones.
In shorter stage races I've found breaks are always quite small and are caught about half way through a stage (like 60km from the line sometimes). In GTs, they seem pretty normal to me. Or are they fine in shorter stage races for you as well?
In general breaks being caught earlier/more in flat stages is better for MG though, I'd say.
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| SotD |
Posted on 13-04-2021 16:56
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World Champion
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Doesn’t those experiences also comes from actually playing a role in the stages? From my experience (Old though) PCM works very different when you ride active vs. passive observer.
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| quadsas |
Posted on 13-04-2021 17:16
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2518
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valverde321 wrote:
quadsas wrote:
valverde321 wrote:
As far as I know, classics are a lot better on 20 vs 18. Everything else is more or less the same, just that aggressive AI that works well for classics doesnt for mountain stages, so if you attack early in a mountain stage that rider is just setting themselves up to crack later on.
Also breakaways are pretty much only ever about 3 riders and only get a 1min gap and are brought back halfway through every stage with the exception of a few bugged stages where they gain an infinite amount of time and win by 50mins or where in GTs large breaks are allowed to form and actually win a stage like normal. Essentially PCM 18 to 20 goes from one extreme for breakaways, to the other extreme. '
I found breakaways to be pretty normal with the exception of massive time gain ones.
In shorter stage races I've found breaks are always quite small and are caught about half way through a stage (like 60km from the line sometimes). In GTs, they seem pretty normal to me. Or are they fine in shorter stage races for you as well?
In general breaks being caught earlier/more in flat stages is better for MG though, I'd say.
On very short stages (under 100km) maybe, if weak riders get into the break, but in general it didn't seem to different from PCM18. And I also never relay at the front so maybe if you do you catch it quickly. It also depends on the stage, AI seems to 'decide' to let break go for a longer rider after certain sprints
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| AbhishekLFC |
Posted on 13-04-2021 17:53
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Directeur Sportif
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I will refrain from voting as I'm ok with either 18 or 20, given what I've understood about the latter so far. Like quadsas said, it really doesn't make sense to go to 19.
However, I had mentioned this in the changes thread, my personal opinion would be to move to a new game with a season's notice in advance (so for the 2022 season) to prevent whatever happened with the last game change. If the managers know that the game is changing in the following season, maybe they can plan ahead in the off-season, like a lot of managers do. Having said this, I do understand that this whole cycle might repeat again next season with perhaps 18, 20 and 21 the games in contention then.
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| roturn |
Posted on 24-06-2021 07:50
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Team Manager
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It was said here and there kind of, but to make it clear once more.
Next season will be run on PCM20!
Going back is not really an option. And PCM21 is still too new.
PCM20 might still not be the ideal PCM version and likely no PCM version is 100 % ideal for MG purpose but it`s a step forward, which happens every 1-2-3 seasons. |
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| cio93 |
Posted on 24-06-2021 10:29
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World Champion
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I've gotten very frustrated with some unrealistic stuff in PCM20 at times, particularly with the massive breakaways on any type of stage and all-out chasing starting extremely early sometimes (and then never stopping), but let's find out what it has in store for the MG!
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| Fabianski |
Posted on 24-06-2021 15:08
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Grand Tour Specialist
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Thanks for posting this rather early.
Now, it would be great to have an overview of how the different stats work in PCM 18 vs. 20, as that might have quite some impact on the selected development path for riders. Are there actually any differences, or can the riders be expected to behave about like in PCM 18? (I have in mind e.g. hybrids working much better in 18 than 15, Acc having less of an impact, ...).
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| SotD |
Posted on 09-11-2021 09:13
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World Champion
Posts: 12186
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I have created a bit of data on the sprints so far, and expect to keep adding to it during the season.
This is what I have compiled so far. I won't go into analysing it yet, but there are some interesting things, such as who creates a train etc.
It seems more likely that the strongest setup (again, I haven't went into analyzing) will create a train regardless of the level of their sprinter, rather than (as before) the top sprinters will try to create a train even if that train is very weak.
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| SotD |
Posted on 28-01-2022 10:57
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World Champion
Posts: 12186
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Alright - so this discussion seem to have died out, but I feel an all-out negative vibe on some (a lot) managers are emerging with also some talking about stopping at the end of the season. That obviously isn't a great perspective, and I believe some of it is down to the game AI.
Which version do you guys prefer for the upcoming season? I know there's already a pool, but now that we know a bit more maybe we could talk into it rather than just a poll...
For me we have 3 options:
PCM '15
PCM '18
PCM '20
For me the worst game is PCM '20, hence the "moving ahead" path that we have discussed previously doesn't seem to be the ideal solution in terms of the Man-Game as we know it. The AI works increasingly less cooperative without human interference and thus I don't think we can trust the game to develop in a more favorable path in the future. So if sticking to PCM '20 is the way to go - I think we need to make a longer halt there rather than swapping for PCM '22 in a year or two.
For me it feels like breakaways, sprints and timetrials have been significantly worse than in the past - even if some of that was also not working brilliantly in the past. Another thing I have noticed is the double leaderships doesn't seem to work very well. If a group of riders come together and then it's random if 1-2-3 or non from a team paticipate. But you cannot plan for double leadership - eg having a super domestique in a Grand Tour doesn't give any minor points. In the past a solid leader (Lecuisinier for Spilak f.e.) could give a 5-7th GC spot without the rider actually attacking - but solely from being very very strong. Also the lieutenaints would often get a good result purely from being close to the captain - which is realistic. I don't get the feeling that stuff like that happens in GC races anymore. Not in the mountainous once anyway.
I am mainly talking from a PT perspective though, so could work differently on a lower level.
Moving back to PCM '18 could be a solution, although I acknowledge that the version isn't ideal either! What talks pro a return is that the stages and graphics should still be easy to fix, while a shift back to PCM '15 would be more work - But IMO that shouldn't be the deciding factor. I know I can't help with the stagemaking, but I'll be more than happy to help wherever I can in order to move to the best possible game solution.
So - what is your take on the future?
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Another aspect I'll like to throw out in plenum is the amount of future divisions and how to work on the community. We are likely going to see more people leave than join in the near future - already this off season I reckon. I'm not sure we can do a lot about it, even if we try to do clever recruitment. So what is the path from there?
Is it going all the way back to 2 divisions, or is it to do smaller divisions?
The good thing about 2 divisions is that we will get to move closer and race against eachother more intensely, and the bad thing could be the amount of work put into creating these 3 divisionized layers that I personally think are very cool for the game.
Regardless of the above I think we need to also adress the wildcard scenario in terms of racedays. I know that PCT riders doesn't get points from participating in PT races, but they do take away points. And I would like to see if we could somehow even stuff like that out, so we don't see PCT riders regularly on the podium of PT races for no point benefit. Also there's the whole RD issue of top riders.
Having a GT leader see your leader ride 3-4-5 races a year, while we see PCT riders (Just going to mention Pluckin) taking part in a similar amount of PT racedays, while also having his own division to play with. Both from a fairness point of view and from a roleplay dimension I find that it has been skewed too much. It becomes difficult to compare results, if Pluchkin f.e. can win 10 races pr. year, with similar riders only are able to win 4.
If we move to 2 divisions I would like to see wildcards removed altogether - maybe even at 3 divisions too - and instead spread out the amount of racedays to 2-5 PCT teams pr. race.
We have created a very solid PTHC system that I personally think could be developped further so ALL racedays count and can give points. Rather than those hobby projects with 3 superstars that can steal away points and then another 5 level 3-4 riders just in-it for the development.
How we can make it fair is obviously a discussion, but I would think some bands adjusted for RD and points could be created, and then spread across the PCT teams from some picking system, maybe including an amount of worst team pick first solution.
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 28-01-2022 11:25
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
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I've definitely benefitted from PCM20 weirdness - Mayer & Croes wild TDU performances. And i've definitely been hurt by them - most Ewan appearances.
I've detailed before that a Top3 GC placing kills your sprinter. This is demonstrable with results across multiple divisions & races, and is totally broken. It's a fundamental game AI error. And it's not one that can actually be fixed by us.
Unlike a stat issues, like ACC being OP on PCM15 or the RES bug on 12(?), which we can work around with Wages, RD, OVL and stat adjusting, this AI error can't be worked into our current MG systems.
For me this, combined with the continuing struggles of game AI to handle sprint trains, the gains made by being in second-wheel behind the main sprint favourite, as well as the overall dice roll randomness of sprints (in part due to inflation which we could tackle, but you don't need me to go on and on about inflation yet again) makes PCM18 & 20 unusable for the MG.
Why do you think almost all of my suggestions last year were dual threat riders, or that i, TMM, the man who loves sprinting more than basically anyone else on the site, who has his jersey based on the Cav era HTC one, has done nothing but work on sprinting for 5 years, is openly talking about walking away from a sprint team.
Yes that means i carry a heavy level of bias into any such discussion. It's why i bothered to go and back up my arguments and theories with actual results we've seen in the MG.
And i'm not even touching on some of SotD's comments on climbing races or TT's (and yes i definitely have noticed TT's being extra odd this season).
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I think we could use PCM18. Unless someone can point it out to me, the other terrains outside sprints, did all work.
We can continue to work on sprints by again adjusting Wages to create a lower & flatter cap of the higher OVL sprinters vs those who delivered results in rankings. This would at least help mitigate against the lottery and second-wheel problem by allowing teams with a top sprinter the wage space to try and compensate in a better lead-out or other terrain option rider.
These changes could be applied to PCM20/21/22 of course. But for me the additional problems make these undesirable and a lot more work to compensate for.
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Not going to comment on the wider conversation of division structures, i'll save that for the Suggestions Thread, and try to keep this to the AI-Game Version focused discussion.
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