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02-03-2021 23:41
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ICL20 - General | Race Planning | Equipment
Bikex
Since the 2019 season is almost over, I thought I would open this thread already to give you the opportunity to give some feedback on what you would like to see changed for the new season.
So if you have any ideas or suggestions let me know Smile

For example I got quite a few complaints about the transfer system last year (well 2 years ago), so am considering some changes there. Any input is welcome!
Edited by Ripley on 22-02-2021 09:02
 
Ripley
You already brought up the points scale and I had two examples, 25th overall in the Deutschland Tour being worth just 6 points while the KOM in the Eneco Tour is worth 110 points, which feels a bit unbalanced. But I'm fine with that, so without much conviction, here are two suggestions:

- (WT) Stage races, GC points scale: Maybe make it a little more linear, not at the top, but boost points a bit for a top 20, maybe even a top 30 result. Give a weaker captain who can't make the top 10 a few points to cheer about. I wouldn't do it for one-day races, keep those harsh.

- KOM points: Keep them as they are for GTs, those are high value jerseys. But maybe reduce them to the U25 scale for smaller races or stage races without any actual mountains.

As for the transfer system, again, I don't have a strong opinion, but I will say again that I prefer the four rounds we had in 2018 rather than the more rolling new system which I found a little confusing. If we stick to the new system the final phase needs a change, I think many of us had trouble signing the last rider, that took too long. Though maybe it would work better next time because we've done it before.
i.imgur.com/6Km77FO.png

pcmdaily.com/files/Awards2019/team%20story.png
pcmdaily.com/images/mg/Awards2020/avatar.png
 
Shonak
I agree with Ripley that the consistency in stage races could be higher rewarded. I am happy with the points scales in classics though, however classics should not be diluted too much. At the moment, the best classic riders miss out on the top GC guys but then again, the hill classics are far more competitive.

(Edit: A short note. Thinking about it. I think many of the hilly riders with good mtn backup would also profit a lot from more points in stage races and GTs as they often occupy the lower spots)

I would also reduce the KoM points for races that actually have only small hills.
Edited by Shonak on 13-11-2020 10:30
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DaveTwoBob
I would also support Ripley's suggestions around depth scoring and KOMs, and the simpler to follow 2018 transfer system. I don't have strong feelings about these just preferences.
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Bikex
Something I want to share with you: https://icl-stats...endar/2019

At the moment it's still very very unfinished, but I don't really have the time to work on it right now and as the archive file hasn't been updated you can use this to check on race results of the last two seasons.

So far there is the calendar page with all races of a season, result pages for races and stages, a rider page which shows the riders result of the season and the team page which shows all riders of the team in a season. Some links work already some don't. At least you can access all of your riders from the team overview page which you can access with /team/team_XX/2019. Replace XX with your id.

Only data for 2018 and 2019 seasons is available.
 
Shonak
Love it.

Not sure if the U25 classification has been integrated right though. E.g. Herklotz in Austria. Won GC but is 4th in u25. https://icl-stats..._7049/2019

Similar wrong stats with Pulido (Portugal e.g.) and Mohoric (Istrian)

Will other years before 2018 also be uploaded at some point?
Unleash the Landa!
pcmdaily.com/files/Awards2016/team.png
pcmdaily.com/files/Awards2017/manager.png

"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
 
Bikex
Good catch, U25 classification is definitely off. It's probably because the U25 tables are sorted by stage result.
 
Laurens147
Cool The game looks amazing. Can’t wait to create a new team!
 
ivaneurope
It sounds as very interesting project - a sort of ProCyclingStats based site. I could be interested in helping.
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dominox
App looks amazing. Absolutely stunning. Much cleaner than searching results tab Grin
 
Croatia14
The App looks absolutely stellar!
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Ollfardh
That looks just great, thanks again for all the work you put into this! If it can be implemented, I can look up some stats for like example monument winners.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
 
Vali
Amazing stuff Bikex, really cool to just browse through past results! Smile
Credits to the_hoyle for my avatar.
 
jandal7
Wow that's awesome, thanks Bikex Grin Think I'll stick to the 2019 tab though Pfft
30/12/14 - matt17br said "Sutty's birthday is more important than [Jesus' Birthday]"
24/2/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don’t drink famous people.”

[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | The Life And Times | [Doomed] i.imgur.com/c85NSl6.png Xero Racing
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3x i.imgur.com/wM6Wok5.png x3
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Ripley
Outstanding work! Thank you, Bikex!
i.imgur.com/6Km77FO.png

pcmdaily.com/files/Awards2019/team%20story.png
pcmdaily.com/images/mg/Awards2020/avatar.png
 
Bikex
@Shonak: Eventually all seasons will be added.
@Ollfardh: Race statistics and stuff like that should also be included at some point
@ivaneurope: Cool, any help is welcome Smile
 
Bikex
What are your opinions on steals?
As it looks now they will be removed from the system. In return the (min) wage calculations will be updated in a way that good riders will ask for more money.
Now the question is should steals/outside offers be completely abolished or implemented in a way that it causes less conflicts (potentially with a compensation that needs to be paid)?
 
Shonak
My main issue is and was with the steal system: If you develop a talent or a rider long-term and invest significant amounts of cash into training, PoY and wage, and some guy comes around and outbids you severely, you either a) lose your star / top talent, or b) have troubles to keep your team afloat. This really puts a dent into the long-term motivation of developing riders.

I thought that the blocking of riders worked well last season, especially to keep others at bay when it comes to your talents. But it is only a partial solution.

I found that steals is also a highly biased system, since some managers might never be targeted for various reasons (rider nationality, manager reputation etc.). I remember how Silvio Herklotz' team fell apart after multiple managers have targeted his riders and he left shortly after IIRC.

If we have higher wage demands based on previous performance but also team performance overall, than that could be a good mechanic to avoid overpowered teams and ensure a healthy transfer period. I don't know how it would work in practice though.

For the balance of the game, we should have competitive but also alternating teams and after a few seasons of seeing it work now, I don't think steals is the best system to support that transition BUT still the steal system has worked fairly well. For example, no team has won the world tour twice I think although there has been an accumulation on the top of the various last years.

I would argue that the Man Game system works well, keeping rider budget and team budget separated, however: this system also had led to a severe stat inflation, dominant riders for years etc; issues that ICL thankfully doesn't have (yet), so we might need our own solution on how to keep the system healthy and the game not broken in itself.
Unleash the Landa!
pcmdaily.com/files/Awards2016/team.png
pcmdaily.com/files/Awards2017/manager.png

"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
 
Ollfardh
I like it for realism, but as Shonak says it's horrible if a few of your riders get targetted at the same time. If we were to continue it, I think two things should be changed.

First of all, as you yourself suggested, the team losing a rider due to a steal should get some money compensation. Where this money should come from, I have no idea. If it also comes from the stealing team, there will hardly be any stealing going on.

Secondly, loyalty should be increased. I think it's only been counted for 3 years at the moment and not that meaningful? If riders are in your team for five years they should have a very high loyalty and it would need an insane offer to persuade them to leave.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
 
df_Trek
Let's start from the fact that we are playing with all single year contracts, and this needs a renewal method like the one used, or every year the team should face hundreds offers on its riders.
I think that steals are somehow necessary to give some dynamicity to the game, because potentially a rider can be inaccessible forever by other teams. Increasing too much money demand can be frustating aswell, because you likely won't be able to maintain the hard core of your team.
Interesting the money compensation, this gave me an idea:
(stating I never partecipated at steal attempt, and maybe I'm not right on how it perfectly works)
When you want to try a steal you should offer (a lot) more wage, (can you quantificate it in a percentage valor?) this same "overpaid" wage can be capitalized by the seller team, and not added to the basic wage of the rider, this should also avoid to create inflation in riders wage.
I'm also favorable to drastically reduce the steals offers per team.
 
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