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Anderis' improved progression database
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| Anderis |
Posted on 27-01-2016 12:44
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Domestique
Posts: 471
Joined: 13-09-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Hello everyone. I would like to present you my new database based on PCMdaily EP that improves the aspect of generating newgens and developing skills of existing riders. I've realised from the very beginning that these aspects of the game can be improved a lot and now I come up with something, that I think, makes this aspects of the game working better. Here's the evidence:
This his how the list of best u-25 climbers look like in mid 2017:
As you can see, the annoying disparity between MO and HI is gone in most of the cases. I can assure you it's even better with newgens later on.
And the same goes with sprinters and SP and FL disparity:
I've modified YoungRiderCarac and training files so we end up with more diversified type of newgens. Here are some interesting ones generated from my DB:
A versatile TT-ist who can climb and cobble (kinda simillar to Gerraint Thomas):
A versatile northern classics specialist who can also be a factor in Ardennes-type of races.
Another cobbler who is more versatile than any other cobbler I have ever got in any other databae:
Also Degenkolb-Kristoff type of rider, who can both sprint and do cobbled races are now more frequent:
What effects does my database bring to the game?
- improved development of riders: riders with good MO but poor HI and riders with good SP or CO but poor flat are now MUCH less likely to occur. Riders also tend to improve more all-around rather than with the focus only on their main skill.
- improved skillsets of newgens: you are more likely to encounter some types of versatile riders that occur in reality but were previously not occuring in the game, like riders who are both top sprinters and cobblers, TT-ists who have inclinations towards climbs or cobbles (or both), cobblers who are also good on hills, fighters who can climb etc. I also think the inflation of talent is less of a problem in my DB.
- less good newgens are now generated in very exotic countries.
- sponsor regions for Cannondale and CCC are improved so the teams don't end up signing too many Italian and French riders respectively.
Note:
I've modified values that affect training of your rider in "Be a pro" mode, because apparently they also affect development of AI riders in career mode, yet I have not tested how does it work in "Be a pro". So it's a database mainly for career mode. It's of course playable in "Be a pro" but I can't guarantee that you will be satisfied with development of your own rider. You can check yourself on your own risk.
If you want to try my new DB, follow the instructions closely!
1. This DB is based on PCMdaily EP. Make sure you have PCMdaily EP V1.6 installed, otherwise my DB will not be working properly in your game.
2. Make the copy of your Pro Cycling Manager 2015/Xml/YoungRiderCarac folder from your Program Files folder and keep it in known place.
3. Download YoungRiderCarac2.7z from attachments and exctract it to Pro Cycling Manager 2015/Xml/YoungRiderCarac in your Program Files folder and replace the previous files.
CAUTION: this will also affect any of your existing careers so if you are not convinced to these files, I recommend you not playing any of your previous favourite careers with them. You can easily switch between my files and original files as often as you want if you make a copy of both. Whatever files you have in YoungRiderCarac, they will affect ALL of your careers that are progressing.
4. Dowload Anderis_improved_progression_DB cdb file from attachments and put it in your Documents/Pro Cycling Manager 2015/Mod/Database folder.
5. Start the game, chose Anderis_improved_progression_DB as current DB in game menu and enjoy!
If there are any problems, let me know in this thread.
EDIT:
V2 of the database (with some minor fixes to the previous one) is available to download now. You don't need to download the previous version, you can download V2 straightaway. But I replaced the youngridercarac file for new one and you should download the newer verson.
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Anderis attached the following files:
Edited by Anderis on 31-01-2016 00:10
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| matt17br |
Posted on 27-01-2016 13:02
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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This is very interesting stuff and definitely worth some further testing but I have a question:
Did you edit any other table besides dyn_training_exercise, sta_region and dyn_sponsor_regions?
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| Anderis |
Posted on 27-01-2016 14:26
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Domestique
Posts: 471
Joined: 13-09-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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I've edited also STA_type_rider, most notably the gene_ilist_VP column. I did some testing and I think it influences the development of all riders that are outside player's control. I've found out that the values there need to be more equal between themselves to ensure the development is more all-around. Setting everything on 3 didn't work too well, though. |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 27-01-2016 21:09
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Thanks for the reply, definitely interesting indeed and if I'll find the time to test a long term career I'll report back the results to see if some tweaking anywhere can be done.
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 27-01-2016 21:43
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 9099
Joined: 13-03-2013
PCM$: 2100.00
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this looks absolutely stunning, something every long-lasting career fan will love (saying that without having used it though)...if it´s working out consistantly like in your screens this should be implemented in the PCM.daily DB if that´s possible...careers where regens rule will be so much more fun!
great work Anderis!
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| Anderis |
Posted on 27-01-2016 22:20
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Domestique
Posts: 471
Joined: 13-09-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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I'm afraid it doesn't work as well as I thought previously.
I've started another simulation career and I'm in 2020 already and I think there are too little good newgens or they reach for the top too slowly.
I intend to reach a year around 2035 so there will be only newgens and look what does the situation look like.
I'm open for suggestions how to improve this DB. |
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| sammyt93 |
Posted on 27-01-2016 22:32
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3634
Joined: 03-07-2012
PCM$: 300.00
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This looks brilliant, it looks like you have solved one of the issues that has always bugged me about playing Career mode in how certain rider types are just not findable in terms of how regens have developed which as been a problem for a few games now.
Nice to finally be able to get guys like Degenkolb or GVA aswell who are kinda crossover guys. Also nice to hear guys like Gauthier and De Marchi are more likely now as these are the kind of guys that should be going for KOM Jerseys.
Now hopefully we will get a guy like Gallopin come through aswell every so often.
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| maxime86 |
Posted on 27-01-2016 23:52
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 2950
Joined: 01-03-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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sammyt93 wrote:
This looks brilliant, it looks like you have solved one of the issues that has always bugged me about playing Career mode in how certain rider types are just not findable in terms of how regens have developed which as been a problem for a few games now.
Nice to finally be able to get guys like Degenkolb or GVA aswell who are kinda crossover guys. Also nice to hear guys like Gauthier and De Marchi are more likely now as these are the kind of guys that should be going for KOM Jerseys.
Now hopefully we will get a guy like Gallopin come through aswell every so often.
+1 |
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| Anderis |
Posted on 28-01-2016 00:38
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Domestique
Posts: 471
Joined: 13-09-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Here's my save from 2023 (hope I chose the right file) if you want to see how have the riders developed by then.
My team is empty, the game crashes when you try to look at the calendar and I've deleted most of the races to see the game progressing quicker. But you can watch riders from other teams.
Anderis attached the following file:
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 21-11-2024 17:44
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Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
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| matt17br |
Posted on 28-01-2016 13:55
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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So I've taken a look at your 2023 save and the biggest problem indeed seems to be a low amount of young talents when that date was reached. The best under 25 riders don't really look that strong compared to the riders already in the db.
Besides that, a few observations:
- It seems to me all the top tier climbers don't have a high time trial stat (> 75) which is different if compared to the original db.
- There doesn't seem to be new top tier time trialists. 81 as a top stat is too low seeing there are more riders with stats above 75. Time trials are a bit too random already, so would prefer if you'd manage to make the top stat higher and increase the production of time trialists.
- There's a slightly too high inflation in the RES stat. While it's not supposed to be higher than 77 normally, which is reserved to the best of the best riders - there are only 2 riders with 77 in the daily db, about 20 above 74 - here there are more than 50 riders with a res stat above 74, 1 with 79 and 16 with more than 76.
- There are no riders with more than 82 in the REC stat, which is the less inflated among them all. There should be bigger differences there, like in the Daily DB.
- I'd try to avoid seeing riders with 85 in a single stat, seeing that also some of them are far too op - see Pedersen. Also look at Restrepo, with 85 acc and 82 hill he's basically unbeatable seeing how dominant the ACC stat has been in PCM 15.
In general, the development looks absolutely great though. I like some of those riders quite a lot, and I also like how there's not too much inflation in general compared to the normal development. The backup stats look absolutely awesome. The major issue really is just making those U25 riders better, and then this will be perfect.
Thanks a bunch for your hard work.
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| titleist82 |
Posted on 28-01-2016 16:49
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 754
Joined: 03-04-2007
PCM$: 1060.00
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Very well done Anderis.
One question: do you think your changes could work on older version of PCM, as well (eg. PCM11). Have the structure of youngridercarac and STA_type_rider changed over time? |
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| Anderis |
Posted on 28-01-2016 19:40
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Domestique
Posts: 471
Joined: 13-09-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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titleist82 wrote:
One question: do you think your changes could work on older version of PCM, as well (eg. PCM11). Have the structure of youngridercarac and STA_type_rider changed over time?
I have no idea. I didn't even play PCM11 and I've never tried advanced editing in any other version of PCM.
matt17br wrote:
- It seems to me all the top tier climbers don't have a high time trial stat (> 75) which is different if compared to the original db.
For some reason none of the stage races specialists have yet reached for the top. In theory, there is a good chance of a top climber reaching >75 TT. I need to find out why is this not happening and if I can change something.
matt17br wrote:
- There doesn't seem to be new top tier time trialists. 81 as a top stat is too low seeing there are more riders with stats above 75. Time trials are a bit too random already, so would prefer if you'd manage to make the top stat higher and increase the production of time trialists.
Well, in theory, there's exactly the same chance for TT-ist to reach the same values of their main stat as for riders from other specialisations.
As I previously showed in the OP, I've got a monster TT newgen in other save:
It's not a case of YoungRiderCarac, either a random thing or something influences their development process.
matt17br wrote:
- There's a slightly too high inflation in the RES stat. While it's not supposed to be higher than 77 normally, which is reserved to the best of the best riders - there are only 2 riders with 77 in the daily db, about 20 above 74 - here there are more than 50 riders with a res stat above 74, 1 with 79 and 16 with more than 76.
It's relatively easy thing to lower the inflation of RES, but does this inflation really have a negative impatct on the game?
matt17br wrote:
- There are no riders with more than 82 in the REC stat, which is the less inflated among them all. There should be bigger differences there, like in the Daily DB.
Well, I think my YoungRiderCarac should enable enough variety on REC. Need to find out why this didn't happen.
matt17br wrote:
- I'd try to avoid seeing riders with 85 in a single stat, seeing that also some of them are far too op - see Pedersen. Also look at Restrepo, with 85 acc and 82 hill he's basically unbeatable seeing how dominant the ACC stat has been in PCM 15.
It's not a problem to set maximum value for the skill on 84 if I get convinced it's better. There's no way to stop top potential riders getting a combination that potentially makes them unbeatable, though. There's always a chance they'll get the highest possible limit on several important skills and there's nothing I can do to prevent that. Only thing I can try is to forbid certain skills getting certain values for certain types of riders at all (that still doesn't forbid them to get a combination that makes them out of the reach of other newgens, though).
Thanks for your feedback.
Edited by Anderis on 28-01-2016 19:56
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| matt17br |
Posted on 28-01-2016 20:22
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Thank you for the detailed answers.
As for res inflation, the thing I'm mostly concerned about is not the inflation per se, but the fact that too many riders reached a stat higher than 76. To have a comparison, in cyanides stat matrix 76 res is worth as much as 82 in Mountain or Hill. So it's like you had 16 riders with more than 81!
The res stat is so low compared to the others because it has too big of an effect. It's most certainly the most dominant among the secondary stats and if a rider has got 79 in it as well as a high mountain/hill/cobble stat he could just ride away from the peloton and win as easily as possible. Get it? We don't want this for sure, do we? 
As for why I suggest to avoid 85 as a reachable stat is because as you might know the differences between a stat and another are progressively bigger when you go up in the matrix. So the difference between 79 and 80 is smaller, actually, quite a lot smaller than the difference between 84 and 85. The reason why we try to avoid putting riders on 85 is mostly that, if a rider has got 85 in any stat he can dominate in his favourite field, if comparison is not very strong. If you add to that the fact that most of the riders that get 85 also could get 80+ - like Pedersen and Restrepo - in any other stat, then you are just going to create absurd op monsters 
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| Anderis |
Posted on 28-01-2016 20:32
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Domestique
Posts: 471
Joined: 13-09-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Of course I can do that and maybe I will.
But in PCMdaily EP V1.0 I've got a newgen with 85MO, 82ACC and REC and 77 RES, so he was perhaps as good as any rider in my DB.  |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 28-01-2016 22:48
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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That's because the Expansion Pack xmls are not perfect either, however this is already a major improvement and with those few tweaks I'm confident you can make it realistic enough to make career mode more fun.
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| Anderis |
Posted on 28-01-2016 22:52
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Domestique
Posts: 471
Joined: 13-09-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Some of my favourite newgens in year 2026 of my simulation career:
- yet another rider simillar to Geraint Thomas:
- a sprinter who, in fact, is better prologue specialist, than the sprinter himself:
- a top cobbler who appears to be a fairly decent climber:
- a puncher from Kazakhstan who found himself capable of riding cobbles:
- Kazakhstan seems to have some luck for versatile talents. This is my favourite one:
if he finds a way to get away solo at MSR (which is not impossible with his ACC and STA), he could stand a (slim) chance of winning all 5 monuments during his career.
The area in which I've failed a bit is to allow generating Sagan/Matthews type of sprinter. I tried to make it possible but I have not encountered a single rider of that type in my DB, yet. There are some sprinters with skills around 67MO 73HI but I would like to get a few with 69-70MO and 75-76HI. This is what I will try to get in the next try, when I also intend to include matt17br's suggestions. It's a bit hard to enable it and not getting dozens of sprinters who are significantly better in MO than HI, which looks wrong, as a result, as long as I also enable Kittel-type of sprinters. It would be easier if I could create additional specialities.
I think I also need to reduce the tendency of good TT-ists to be also good climbers.
Edited by Anderis on 28-01-2016 23:03
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| titleist82 |
Posted on 29-01-2016 11:56
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 754
Joined: 03-04-2007
PCM$: 1060.00
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Anderis wrote:
titleist82 wrote:
One question: do you think your changes could work on older version of PCM, as well (eg. PCM11). Have the structure of youngridercarac and STA_type_rider changed over time?
I have no idea. I didn't even play PCM11 and I've never tried advanced editing in any other version of PCM.
In case someone else is interested on applying your improvements to PCM2011:
I tried, and it works!
- youngridercarac xmls have the same structure, so I have directly replaced them (they are stored in a slightly different folder, though).
- STA_type_rider table is very similar (a few more columns in PCM15, i have ignored them)
- sta_training_exercise is exactly the same, so i directly replaced it in the database.
I could test on a long term career, but based on the potential values of regens created in season 1, the outcome is brilliant! Many more versatile riders combining hill/sprint, cob/sprint, cob/hill, tt/hill and so on. |
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| Anderis |
Posted on 30-01-2016 18:35
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Domestique
Posts: 471
Joined: 13-09-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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I've made slightly improved V2 version of my database with some minor changes to STA_type_rider and STA_region as well as changes in YoungRiderCarac.
NOTE:
I've realised that I had published by mistake an earlier version of database than the one which I were doing tests on. So the V2 version of my database is in fact not one, but two small steps beyond the previously published version so I reccomend to download it and replace the previous version.
Effects:
- 85 in any skill is now unreachable.
- Upper limit on RES is lowered for the best talents (only TT-ers can exceed 76 and with a smal probability of this).
- Sagan type of sprinters are now more likely to occur (I've got 70MO 75HI sprinter in my save).
- Disproportion between TT and PR should now be lowered for stage race type of rider.
- Climbing talents are a little bit less likely to occur among TT-ers.
- Top barrouders with average fighter stat are now less likely to occur.
Attachment:
- cdb file with V2 version of database. (Anderis_improved_progressionV2.cdb).
- improved YoungRiderCarac (YoungRiderCarac2.7z).
- career save from 2020 to evaluate changes.
Anderis attached the following files:
Edited by Anderis on 30-01-2016 18:47
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| Ulrich Ulriksen |
Posted on 30-01-2016 19:44
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 3259
Joined: 02-11-2010
PCM$: 300.00
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Sounds interesting.
If I want to implement in a current career, it sounds like I can swap in the YoungRiderCarac file. What do I lose if I don't make the table changes in the CDB file?
Or can I substitute those individual tables you mention? |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 30-01-2016 19:46
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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This looks basically perfect already, there even seems to be a higher amount of young riders at the top now. Actually, there's a lot of interesting youngsters up there with the best
Only really small objections, maybe the top time trialists don't have high enough prologue stats? Take a look at it please, as prologue became increasingly important, it now affects a rider until the 18th km of a TT.
Same for sprinters who in some cases have too low acceleration stats, but there's not a lot of them there. You'll hardly see sprinters with 79-75/76 or 82-76 in the daily db. But as I mentioned, it's pretty good compared to the original matrix.
All the rest, I've taken a look at it and I must say it's absolutely impressive how the backup stats are similar to the 2015 DB even 5 years later, which is good, very very good. I like the differences in the downhill stats for the climbers. I like the amount of cobbled sprinters, pretty similar to RL. I like how you hardly can find punchy sprinters and most of them can easily get over speed bumps, and same to be said about cobblers. I like how you can get the feel of climbers that can create gaps when the gradients are steeper and some of them that struggle more, whilst not exaggerating like before with huge differences between mountain and hill. I also like how the time trialists rider types are similar to real life - although only the big prologue differences need to be fixed.
Thanks for your hard work in this. It sure is paying off believe me.
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