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Note ''recovery'' in the cdb file has no effect !
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| Aziz |
Posted on 02-08-2015 09:10
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Junior Rider
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after a few tries it turns out that yes ! Only the behavior of your team days, whether you ran or not strong , or not long escape shoed you decrease the green yellow red bar the next day, but recovery allows you note any impact on the next day. whether in all game modes ! |
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| Aziz |
Posted on 02-08-2015 19:53
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Junior Rider
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concretely ... revise database gentlemen and most methodically test notes EVERY year, because it is still amazing that no one had noticed the problem is . |
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 02-08-2015 20:09
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Grand Tour Specialist
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Aziz wrote:
concretely ... revise database gentlemen and most methodically test notes EVERY year, because it is still amazing that no one had noticed the problem is .
Excuse me, but what?
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| Waghlon |
Posted on 02-08-2015 20:34
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Grand Tour Champion
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THE THOMAS VOECKLER PROPHET OF PCM DAILY
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| MartijnVDD |
Posted on 02-08-2015 20:48
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Breakaway Specialist
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I understood everything! Basically what he's saying is this:
Spoiler Just kidding. I didn't understand a word of what he said... |
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| Ripley |
Posted on 02-08-2015 22:30
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Classics Specialist
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My guess is that Aziz is saying that the recovery stat has no influence on the freshness of the riders in stage races. This was discussed for previous editions and Kentaurus' test last year pretty much confirmed it when comparing 55 rec to 85 rec, only minimal differences:
https://pcmdaily.c...st_1069776 |
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| Olback |
Posted on 03-08-2015 09:26
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Under 23
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That is how i read it. I assume it still has an affect on the recovery for future days? |
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| zuff |
Posted on 03-08-2015 14:23
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it has no effect on freshness but it has an effect on fitness, is that right? |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 23:15
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| coolrex |
Posted on 03-08-2015 20:53
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it has effect on the green, red and yellow for your next stage in the tour, lower recovery is more chance to have less green, red and yellow |
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| totto |
Posted on 03-08-2015 20:58
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I think the problem is that recovery enables you to recover too much. So whatever the effort, you are back to maximum freshness on the next day. Not sure if that is what Aziz is talking about, but I've noticed I could go all way through a GT and still have all team at "excellent" freshness at the end, which doesn't seem very normal... |
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| Aziz |
Posted on 26-08-2015 18:31
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Junior Rider
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Made in the stat recovery will affect any particular energy bar, depending on your performance everyday stress on your power shortens race. '' The recovery is artificial
Sorry for google translate |
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| Evilste |
Posted on 28-08-2015 13:32
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In my experience, recovery does have an effect, but you are only going to notice it after really punishing stages or if you've ridden yourself into the ground.
In the majority of stages you finish with around 1/2 of your green bar left, and in these cases even a poor recovery stat will allow full recovery for the next day.
It's after stages like the one I raced a couple of days ago that you notice it. 250km of undulating hills with frequent short sharp climes and 60kph wind, and a long hard chase to catch a breakaway that should not have been allowed to get a 12 minute lead. By the time we got to the end I had burned through 85% of my green bar, and I was in the lead group and in much better shape than the rest of my team. I had recovery around 74, and the following day my energy bars were 5% down at the start line, my team had lower recovery and some started the next stage as much as 20% down and didn't make a full recovery until another 2 days had passed. |
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| florian96 |
Posted on 28-08-2015 14:25
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Under 23
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I hope they come back to the old system or make it better.
Cyanide messed this up. There are so many things connected to each other. Why they just don't keep it simple and easy to understand?
Hopefully they have a look on he wishlist and get things right, because I can't take it anymore.
To come back to the recovery:
I realized this on the Dauphine on the 8th Stage. First there was the lodingscreen with the shortcut "DEC" or similar and under it the Recovery stats of the favorited riders.
At the stage itself the Peleton quickly cut into pieces on the first longer slopes. |
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| FreireCyanide |
Posted on 28-08-2015 15:46
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There are several parameters that plays on the freshness.
One of those is obviously the Recovery attribute (REC).
The others are:
1) Green energy spent during the stage (non-linear formula)
2) Difficulty of the stage (Cobbles, Timetrial or Normal stage)
3) Length of the stage (the longer stages has a bigger impact)
+ Fitness (only for career. not for one off races)
That's something we improved during November 2014 (so for PCM15) and was better and more realistic than PCM14's recovery formula.
I don't remember exactly what was the problem with the PCM14's formula, I think the difference between 2 riders (for a same amount of energy spent) was either too big or either too small (can't remember which extreme it was, one or the other)
and we also had some issues with flat stages doing nothing on the freshness and mountain stages being too much devastating.
It was something like : either you kept all your freshness either you finished empty but there were no real way to have something balanced between those 2 extremes cases!
So let's back to PCM15.
In the 2 pictures in attachment (the document we worked with in order to balance/tune the feature) you can see a bench with two identical riders, except for their REC attribute:
60 REC vs 80 REC
and of course for the exact same spent energy during the whole race.
the 60 REC rider finish with freshness = 62pts
the 80 REC rider finish with freshness = 87pts
it's not that big so of course between a 80 REC and a 75 REC it will be hard to see huge differences on the performance (maybe 4 to 5 pts at the end of the 21 stages!)
The discontinue red line is the freshness.
The green line is the green spent energy.
The blue line is the one with some tweaks.
The purple line is the final one used with difficulty & length coeff, that lead to the freshness calcul (with REC attribute coefficient)
REC 60:
REC 80:
Maybe it's not yet perfect but I think the mechanic is at least interesting.
If you have some feedbacks about it, let's give your thoughts and we could take a look to adjust it a bit for the next PCM.
The point is it's really hard to have something working perfectly at the same time for a hard race like Giro or Tour and also working perfectly for easier short stage races like Down Under or Paris-Nice. |
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| florian96 |
Posted on 28-08-2015 21:02
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Under 23
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Finally someone of Cyanide is here at the community forum and writing to us. Thank you!
Great insight in how this things work.
So when I read this my words seem to be a little bit hard. 
All these things make sense.
Maybe FreireCyanide can open up a thread and make it sticky.
What also get's me angry some time is the bad freshness. Sure when you work hard you get weak. But I don't understand why the yellow and red bar get effected too.
As far as I knew all the years, if the green bar decreases the yellow and red come into action earlier (on lower heartrate) or decreases quicker (2 times faster).
And that also bring me to the question why does the heartrate effects yellow now on ~140 Beats? In my eyes 160 was perfect. |
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| FreireCyanide |
Posted on 31-08-2015 11:27
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Junior Rider
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The freshness doesn't affect directly the attributes, so if we remove the effect on the bars...this would become a useless parameter.
quick reminder (without double check on the docs):
Rythm => absolute quantity of energy (let's say for example: 100.000 unity of green energy available)
Freshness => % of energy (for ex: 90% of those 100.000 units)
Fitness => attribute efficiency (PL, MO, TT, etc...)
Day Feelings (-5 to +5) => attribute efficiency (some attributes are more affected than others by the day feelings).
About the beats, it has no effects! it's an "answer" mechanism, not a parameter that lead to the way things works. That's also why IRL you don't do your HIT exercices anymore with it and you have a powermeter instead (even if with some crossed datas the HR is still interesting to know for post-training analysis imho).
But your point is still right, even if it's not the value of the HR that leads to the way the yellow bar is spent, behind that value there are a power (in the game engine) where the yellow bar starts to be consumed.
That's a choice we made and it would not be a small things to review it (side-effects on all the game). BTW if you argue it would be far more interesting maybe we could discuss it with the team. |
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| jedition |
Posted on 31-08-2015 18:47
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Amateur
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Boooooom and the cyanide guy just laid down the facts....this guy should own this forum!!!!
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| florian96 |
Posted on 03-09-2015 08:58
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Under 23
Posts: 64
Joined: 24-07-2009
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This things go deeper than I ever thought! 
So better rhythm gives you more energy (green bar), but you can't see the effect on the green bar on screen.
Freshness effects the amount/percentage of energy you can use and you can see it on screen (green bar).
Fitness and daily form is clear.
So if I understand it right yellow is not effected by the heart rate, because the heart rate only reacts on the yellow bar. The other way round I thought it is.
When you write about a choice, are there other choices you worked on?
And sure that this changes bring side effects are clear. The only question is are this effects good for the gameplay or bad.
As I have seen now there are so many things that have to work together that it's not easy to know what's right or wrong. What in short-terms looks good could be bad for long-terms. What is only one thing to remind.
On the freshness thing I wanted to say the following.
How many bars get effected by the freshness: only green or all 3 bars?
Has the green bar effects on yellow and red?
Are these two bars (yellow and red) dynamic or static?
If they get used the whole race statically I understand why they are not completely full on bad freshness.
But if they get used dynamically --> example: the lower the green bar, the more yellow and red get used and slower fill up again.
In that case it's unfair to not fill the two bars completely up, when the green bar already is in bad shape from the beginning. |
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| FreireCyanide |
Posted on 15-09-2015 14:28
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Junior Rider
Posts: 32
Joined: 02-02-2008
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The HR does not react exactly on the yellow bar, it's a bit more complicated in the engine. The rider deliver a certain power, and deoending on this power you have an effect on the energy bars. Then you have something that transform that into HR.
The 3 bars are affected by the freshness.
The bars are "static" (in the definition of what you call "static" => no matter how much green you have, the yellow & red energy evolutions depends on the riders'characteristics + his power)
So in other word there are no "multiple bash" effects on the yellow/red energy with the freshness. |
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| florian96 |
Posted on 17-09-2015 21:11
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Under 23
Posts: 64
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In my opinion it would be better the freshness only effects the green bar and the green bar effects the yellow and red bar.
It's like you run 10 times 100m. Every time you run you get weaker earlier than before.
I think this would be a case to think about. This would be also great to see Sprinters and stage hunters saving energy (green bar) on stages where they got no chance to win. I don't know if this things would make the game better, more realistic or else, but maybe it's wroth a try.
To come to another point I already posted in the AI behaviour thread and get slightly off topic here.
What is going on with the AI riders?!
Before the Sprintfinish some guys rush in front with around 80 km/h, also the acceleration is rocket like. Something my riders never reach.
It also happened during races, but it's not that obvious.
Is the AI also involved in the engine or are they controlled in an other way like my user controlled riders? Because this is strange when you see that they squeeze out all of their power in a much shorter way than I can do and then even survive that high effort. |
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