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2013 UCI Road World Championships Firenze
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| Wilier |
Posted on 04-09-2013 21:13
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Discuss anything regarding the coming Road World Championships here, including selections, favourites etc. I will edit the selections in these first post to keep track.
Team Time Trial - Men Elite
Participants
 Velo Club Sovac |  Utensilnord - Ora24.eu | | 341. Nabil Baz | 331.  Gabriele Bosisio | 342.  Hassen Ben Nasr | 332. Zsolt Der | | 343. Hichem Chabane | 333. Abel Kenyeres | | 344. Karim Hadjbouzit | 334. Krisztian Lovassy | | 345. Abderrahmane Mehdi Hamza | 335. Alessandro Mazzi | | 346. Fayçal Hamza | 336. Federico Rocchetti | | ---------- | ---------- |  BDC - Marcpol Team |  Cycling Team Jo Piels | | 321. Pawel Bernas | 311. Bram de Kort | | 322. Kamil Gradek | 312. Berden de Vries | | 323. Piotr Kirpsza | 313. Jasper Hamelink | | 324. Mateusz Komar | 314. Jochem Hoekstra | | 325. Jaroslaw Kowalczyk | 315. Steven Lammertink | | 326. Robert Radosz | 316. Stefan Poutsma | | ---------- | ---------- |  Team Cult Energy | Cycling Team De Rijke - Shanks | | 301. Michael Valgren | 291. Dion Beukeboom | | 302. Jesper Hansen | 292. Huub Duyn | | 303. Magnus Cort | 293.  Christoph Pfingsten | | 304. Mads Würtz | 294. Bob Schoonbroodt | | 305. André Steensen | 295. Ronan van Zandbeek | | 306. Troels Rønning Vinther | 296. Coen Vermeltfoort | | ---------- | ---------- |  Etixx - iHNed CT |  Optum p/b Kelly Benefit Strategies | 281.  Dieter Bouvry | 271.  Ryan Anderson | 282.  Markus Hoelgaard | 272. Jesse Anthony | 283.  Patrick Konrad | 273. Michael Friedman | 284.  Florian Senechal | 274. Chad Haga | 285.  Sam Spokes | 275. Tom Zirbel | | 286. Lukasz Wisniowski | 276. Scott Zwizanski | | ---------- | ---------- | | Rabobank Development Team |  Kolss Cycling Team | | 261. Jasper Bovenhuis | 251. Vitaliy Buts | | 262. Lennard Hofstede | 252. Andriy Khripta | | 263. Mike Teunissen | 253. Mykhaylo Kononenko | | 264. Martijn Tusveld | 254. Oleksandr Kvachuk | | 265. Rick Zabel | 255. Sergiy Lagkuti | | 266. Ruben Zepunkte | 256. Andriy Vasylyuk | | ---------- | ---------- |  Adria Mobil | Team Gourmetfein - Simplon | | 241. Kristjan Fajt | 231. Markus Eibegger | 242.  Bruno Maltar | 232. Matija Kvasina | | 243. Matej Mugerli | 233. Matej Marin | | 244. Tomasz Nose | 234. Stephan Rabitsch | | 245. Radoslav Rogina | 235. Sebastian Schönberger | | 246. Klemen Stimulak | 236. Jan Sokol | | ---------- | ---------- |  MTN - Qhubeka | Topsport Vlaanderen - Baloise | 221.  Ignatas Konovalovas | 211. Laurens De Vreese | | 222. Bradley Potgieter | 212. Pieter Jacobs | | 223. Kristian Sbaragli | 213. Gijs Van Hoecke | | 224. Jay Robert Thomson | 214. Arthur Van Overberghe | | 225. Johann Van Zyl | 215. Pieter Vanspeybroeck | | 226. Martin Wesemann | 216. Jelle Wallays | | ---------- | ---------- | | Vini Fantini - Selle Italia | CCC - Polsat - Polkowice | | 201. Stefano Borchi | 191. Tomasz Kiendys | | 202. Daniele Colli | 192. Jaroslaw Marycz | | 203. Oscar Gatto | 193.  Nikolay Mihaylov | | 204. Luigi Miletta | 194. Davide Rebellin | | 205. Cristiano Monguzzi | 195. Marek Rutkiewicz | | 206. Alessandro Proni | 196. Mateusz Taciak | | ---------- | ---------- | | Vacansoleil - DCM Pro Cycling Team | Lotto - Belisol | | 181. Thomas De Gendt | 171. Lars Ytting Bak | 182.  Juan Antonio Flecha | 172. Bart De Clercq | 183.  Sergey Lagutin | 173. André Greipel | | 184. Bert-Jan Lindeman | 174. Adam Hansen | | 185. Mirko Selvaggi | 175.  Gregory Henderson | | 186. Lieuwe Westra | 176. Jürgen Roelandts | | ---------- | ---------- | | FDJ.fr | Team Argos - Shimano | | 161. Alexandre Geniez | 151. William Clarke | | 162. Matthieu Ladagnous | 152. Tom Dumoulin | | 163. Johan Le Bon | 153. Patrick Gretsch | | 164. Yoann Offredo | 154. Reinardt Janse Van Rensburg | | 165. Dominique Rollin | 155.  Tobias Ludvigsson | | 166. Jérémy Roy | 156. Ramon Sinkeldam | | ---------- | ---------- | | Euskaltel - Euskadi | Lampre - Merida | | 141. Mikel Astarloza | 131. Matteo Bono | | 142. Jorge Azanza | 132. Davide Cimolai | | 143. Ion Izagirre | 133. Luca Dodi | | 144. Romain Sicard | 134. Roberto Ferrari | 145.  Ioannis Tamouridis | 135. Adriano Malori | | 146. Gorka Verdugo | 136.  Ariel Maximiliano Richeze | | ---------- | ---------- | | Garmin - Sharp | Cannondale Pro Cycling | | 121. Rohan Dennis | 111. Maciej Bodnar | | 122. Tyler Farrar | 112. Tiziano Dall'Antonia | 123.  David Millar | 113. Michel Koch | | 124. Andrew Talansky | 114. Kristjan Koren | | 125. Christian Vande Velde | 115.  Peter Sagan | | 126. David Zabriskie | 116. Brian Bach Vandborg | | ---------- | ---------- | | Ag2r - La Mondiale | Belkin Pro Cycling Team | | 101. Gediminas Bagdonas | 91. Stef Clement | | 102. Julien Berard | 92. Rick Flens | 103.  Ben Gastauer | 93. Wilco Kelderman | | 104. Hugo Houle | 94. Tom Leezer | | 105. Blel Kadri | 95. Jos van Emden | | 106. Jean-Christophe Peraud | 96. Robert Wagner | | ---------- | ---------- | | Team Saxo - Tinkoff |  Astana Pro Team | | 81. Manuele Boaro | 71. Janez Brajkovic | | 82. Mads Christensen | 72. Jakob Fuglsang | | 83. Michael Mørkøv | 73. Andriy Grivko | 84.  Nicolas Roche | 74. Dmitriy Gruzdev | | 85. Nicki Sørensen | 75.  Tanel Kangert | | 86. Matteo Tosatto | 76. Alessandro Vanotti | | ---------- | ---------- | | [b]Radioshack - Leopard |  Katusha Team | 61.  Fabian Cancellara | 51. Maxim Belkov | | 62. Markel Irizar | 52. Pavel Brutt | | 63. Bob Jungels | 53. Mikhail Ignatiev | | 64. Yaroslav Popovych | 54. Vladimir Isaychev | | 65. Hayden Roulston | 55. Timofey Kritskiy | | 66. Jesse Sergent | 56. Alexander Porsev | | ---------- | ---------- | | Movistar Team | Sky Procycling | 41.  Andrey Amador | 31. Edvald Boasson Hagen | | 42. Jonathan Castroviejo | 32. Chris Froome | 43.  Rui Costa | 33.  Vasil Kiryienka | | 44. Jesus Herrada | 34. Richie Porte | | 45. Ruben Plaza | 35. Kanstantsin Siutsou | | 46. Eloy Teruel | 36. Geraint Thomas | | ---------- | ---------- | | Orica - GreenEDGE | BMC Racing Team | | 21. Luke Durbridge | 11. Stephen Cummings | | 22. Michael Hepburn | 12. Daniel Oss | | 23. Daryl Impey | 13. Taylor Phinney | | 24. Brett Lancaster | 14. Manuel Quinziato | | 25. Jens Mouris | 15. Michael Schär | | 26. Svein Tuft | 16. Tejay Van Garderen | | ---------- | | | OmegaPharma - Quick Step Cycling Team | | | 1. Sylvain Chavanel | | | 2. Michal Kwiatkowski | | | 3. Tony Martin | | | 4. Niki Terpstra | | | 5. Kristof Vandewalle | | | 6. Peter Velits | |
Edited by Wilier on 22-09-2013 09:49
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| Wilier |
Posted on 04-09-2013 21:14
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Individual Time Trial - Elite Men
Elite Woman
U23 Men
Participants
| Australia | Belgium | Canada | | Richie Porte | Kristof Vandewalle | Svein Tuft | | Rohan Dennis | Thomas De Gendt | | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | | Czech Republic | Denmark |  Finland | | Jan Barta | Rasmus Quaade | Samuel Pökälä | | Jakub Novak | Alex Rasmussen | | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | | France | Germany | Great Britain | | Sylvain Chavanel | Tony Martin* | Bradley Wiggins | | Jérémy Roy | Patrick Gretsch | Alex Dowsett | | Bert Grabsch | | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | | Italy | Ireland | Luxembourg | | Marco Pinotti | Nicolas Roche | Bob Jungels | | Adriano Malori | | | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | | Netherlands | New Zealand | Poland | | Lieuwe Westra | Sam Bewley | Maciej Bodnar | | Niki Terpstra | Jesse Sergent | Michal Kwiatkowski | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | | Portugal | Russia | Slovakia | | Nelson Oliveira | Ilnur Zakarin | Peter Velits | | Tiago Machado | Vladimir Gusev | Matej Jurco | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | | Slovenia | South Africa | Sweden | | Janez Brajkovic | Reinardt Janse Van Rensburg | Tobias Ludvigsson | | Kristjan Koren | Jay Robert Thomson | Gustav Erik Larsson | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | | Switzerland | United States | | | Fabian Cancellara | Andrew Talansky | | | Reto Hollenstein | Taylor Phinney | |
Edited by Wilier on 19-09-2013 18:17
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 25-11-2024 09:57
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| Wilier |
Posted on 04-09-2013 21:14
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Posts: 5405
Joined: 28-04-2008
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Road Race - Elite Men
Elite Women
U23 Men
Participants
| Australia |  Colombia (-1 rider) | France | | Simon Clarke | Janier Acevedo | Romain Bardet | | Rohan Dennis | Winner Anacona | Warren Barguil | | Cadel Evans | Darwin Atapuma | Cyril Gautier | | Mathew Hayman | Rafael Infantino | Amaël Moinard | | Michael Matthews | Carlos Betancur | Thibaut Pinot | | Cameron Meyer | Sergio Henao | Christophe Riblon | | Richie Porte | Nairo Quintana | Anthony Roux | | Rory Sutherland | Miguel Rubiano | Arthur Vichot | | David Tanner | Cayetano Sarmiento | Thomas Voeckler | | Rigoberto Uran | | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | | Italy (-2 riders) | Netherlands | Poland | | Giampaolo Caruso | Bauke Mollema | Maciej Bodnar | | Vincenzo Nibali | Laurens ten Dam | Maciej Paterski | | Rinaldo Nocentini | Robert Gesink | Michal Golas | | Luca Paolini | Wilco Kelderman | Michal Kwiatkowski | | Filippo Pozzato | Sebastian Langeveld | Rafal Majka | | Simone Ponzi | Tom Dumoulin | Tomasz Marczynski | | Ivan Santaromita | Pieter Weening | Przemyslaw Niemiec | | Diego Ulissi | Tom-Jelte Slagter | Sylwester Szmyd | | Michele Scarponi | Johnny Hoogerland | Bartosz Huzarski | | Alessandro Vanotti | | | | Giovanni Visconti | | | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | | Spain | Switzerland | Great Britain | | Alejandro Valverde | Michael Albasini | Mark Cavendish | | Jose Herrada | Fabian Cancellara | Stephen Cummings | | Jonathan Castroviejo | Martin Elmiger | Joshua Edmondson | | Samuel Sanchez | Mathias Frank | Ian Stannard | | Egoi Martinez | Gregory Rast | Geraint Thomas | | Joaquim Rodriguez | Sébastien Reichenbach | Chris Froome | | Daniel Moreno | Michael Schär | Jonathan Tiernan-Locke | | Alberto Contador | Danilo Wyss | Bradley Wiggins | | Luis Leon Sanchez | Oliver Zaugg | | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | | Belgium | Czech Republic (-3 riders) | United States | | Philippe Gilbert* | Jan Barta | Tejay Van Garderen | | Greg Van Avermaet | Martin Hacecky | Matthew Busche | | Jan Bakelants | Tomas Buchacek | Andrew Talansky | | Gianni Meersman | Leopold König | Chris Horner | | Björn Leukemans | Martin Hunal | Taylor Phinney | | Johan Vansummeren | Stanislav Kozubek | Alex Howes | | Dries Devenyns | Roman Kreuziger | Peter Stetina | | Frantisek Rabon | | | Jakub Novak | | | Zdenek Stybar | | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | | Austria | Germany |  Iran | | Stefan Denifl | John Degenkolb | 1 | | Riccardo Zoidl | Simon Geschke | 2 | | Georg Preidler | Paul Martens | 3 | | Markus Eibegger | Marcus Burghardt | 4 | | Bernhard Eisel | Dominik Nerz | 5 | | Matthias Brändle | Fabian Wegmann | 6 | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- |  Morocco | Slovakia | Slovenia | | Essaïd Abelouache | Peter Sagan | Janez Brajkovic | | Ismail Ayoune | Peter Velits | Grega Bole | | Soufiane Haddi | Martin Velits | Borut Bozic | | Adil Jelloul | Juraj Sagan | Kristjan Koren | | Reda Aadel | Matej Jurco | Matej Mugerli | | Lahcen Saber | Patrik Tybor | Jan Polanc | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | | Ukraine (-3 riders) |  Venezuela | Ireland | | Vitaliy Buts | Yonder Godoy | Daniel Martin | | Sergiy Gretchyn | Yonathan Monsalve | Nicolas Roche | | Andriy Grivko | Carlos Jose Ochoa | Sam Bennett | | Andriy Khripta | Jackson Rodriguez | Matthew Brammeier | | Mykhaylo Kononenko | Pedro Sequera | | | Denys Kostyuk | Freddy Vargas | | | Oleksandr Polivoda | | | | Yaroslav Popovych | | | | Andriy Vasylyuk | | | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | | Algeria |  Brazil | Canada | | Hichem Chabane | Murilo Fischer | Christian Meier | | Abdelbasset Hannachi | Rafael Andriato | François Parisien | | Youcef Reguigui | | | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | | Costa Rica | Croatia | Denmark | | Andrey Amador | Radoslav Rogina | Chris Anker Sørensen | | Gregory Brenes | Kristijan Durasek | Matti Breschel | | 3 | Matija Kvasina | Jakob Fuglsang | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- |  Eritrea | Estonia (-1 rider) |   China/Hong Kong | | Daniel Teklehaimanot | Rein Taaramäe | Ho Ting Kwok | | Meron Russom | Alo Jakin | King Lok Cheung | | Frekalsi Debesay | Gert Joeäär | | | Tanel Kangert | | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | | Kazakhstan |  Latvia | Lithuania (-2 riders) | | Maxim Iglinskiy | Viesturs Luksevics | Gediminas Bagdonas | | Andrey Zeits | Aleksejs Saramotins | Tomas Vaitkus | | Dmitriy Gruzdev | Andris Smirnovs | Ignatas Konovalovas | | Arman Kamyshev | | Evaldas Siskevicius | | Alexey Lutsenko | | Ramunas Navardauskas | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- |  Malaysia |  Mexico | New Zealand | | Sea Keong Loh | Uri Martins | George Bennett | | Adiq Othman | Juan Pablo Magallanes | Jack Bauer | | 3 | Hector Rangel | Sam Bewley | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | | Norway | Portugal | Russia | | Lars Petter Nordhaug | Rui Costa | Alexandr Kolobnev | | Thor Hushovd | Andre Cardoso | Sergey Chernetskiy | | Edvald Boasson Hagen | Tiago Machado | Yury Trofimov | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | | Sweden |  Turkey | South Africa | | Tobias Ludvigsson | 1 | Daryl Impey | | Thomas Löfkvist | 2 | Reinardt Janse Van Rensburg | | Fredrik Kessiakoff | 3 | | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | | Argentina | Belarus (-1 rider) | Bulgaria (-1 rider) | | Enzo Josue Moyano | Vasil Kiryienka | Spas Gyurov | | Kanstantsin Siutsou | Stefan Koychev Hristov | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- |  Ecuador | Finland | Greece | | Jose Ragonessi | Jussi Veikkanen | Ioannis Tamouridis | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- | | Hungary | Luxembourg |  Moldova (-1 rider) | | Peter Kusztor | Bob Jungels | Alexandr Braico | | | Sergiu Cioban | | ---------- | ---------- | ---------- |  Romania |  Serbia | Tunisia | | Andrei Nechita | Ivan Stevic | Rafaâ Chtioui |
Edited by Wilier on 20-09-2013 17:28
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| nielsboy1998 |
Posted on 04-09-2013 21:19
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Holland haves a selection for the WC ready! I gonna searche it.
Edit:
Road:
Bauke Mollema
Laurens ten Dam
Robert Gesink
Wilco Kelderman
Wout Poels
Tom Dumoulin
Pieter Weening
Tom-Jelte Slagter
Johnny Hoogerland
TT:
Lieuwe Westra
Niki Terpstra
Edited by nielsboy1998 on 04-09-2013 21:20
Always see the bright Side of life! |
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| Alakagom |
Posted on 04-09-2013 21:20
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Qualifying nations for Elite Men Road Race
Spoiler 1 Spain 9
2 Colombia 9
3 Italy 9
4 Netherlands 9
5 Australia 9
6 France 9
7 Poland 9
8 Switzerland 9
9 Great Britain 8
10 Belgium 7
11 Czech Republic 7
12 United States of America 7
13 Austria 6
14 Germany 6
15 Islamic Republic of Iran 6
16 Morocco 6
17 Slovakia 6
18 Slovenia 6
19 Ukraine 6
20 Venezuela 6
21 Ireland 4
22 Algeria 3
23 Brazil 3
24 Canada 3
25 Costa Rica 3
26 Croatia 3
27 Denmark 3
28 Eritrea 3
29 Estonia 3
30 Hong Kong, China 3
31 Kazakhstan 3
32 Latvia 3
33 Lithuania 3
34 Malaysia 3
35 Mexico 3
36 New Zealand 3
37 Norway 3
38 Portugal 3
39 Russian Federation 3
40 Sweden 3
41 Turkey 3
42 Republic of South Africa 2
43 Argentina 1
44 Belarus 1
45 Bulgaria 1
46 Ecuador 1
47 Finland 1
48 Greece 1
49 Hungary 1
50 Luxembourg 1
51 Republic of Moldova 1
52 Romania 1
53 Serbia 1
54 Tunisia 1
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| nielsboy1998 |
Posted on 04-09-2013 21:26
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South-Africa:
Road:
Daryl Impey
TT:
Jay Thompson
Reinardt Janse van Rensburg
New-Sealand:
Road:
George Bennett
Jack Bauer
Sam Bewley
TT:
Sam Bewley
Jesse Sergent
USA:
Road:
Tejay Van Garderen
Fred Rodriquez
Andrew Talansky
Chris Horner
Taylor Phinney
Alex Howes
Peter Stetina
TT:
Andrew Talansky
Taylor Phinney
Edited by nielsboy1998 on 04-09-2013 21:27
Always see the bright Side of life! |
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| Dippofix |
Posted on 04-09-2013 21:29
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You're joking with the qualifying nations, right? Iran 6, Marocco 6, Ireland 4?!? 
Dan Martin alone probably has more WT Points than Marocco & Iran together.
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| nielsboy1998 |
Posted on 04-09-2013 21:32
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Dippofix wrote:
You're joking with the qualifying nations, right? Iran 6, Marocco 6, Ireland 4?!?
Dan Martin alone probably has more WT Points than Marocco & Iran together.
And Rusland and Norway 3 And Belarus 1... UCI strikes Again 
Edited by nielsboy1998 on 04-09-2013 21:33
Always see the bright Side of life! |
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| Wilier |
Posted on 04-09-2013 21:46
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Added selections from the Netherlands, South Africa, New Zealand and the United States to the list of participants.
Thanks to nielsboy for looking it up for me.
Edited by Wilier on 04-09-2013 21:47
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| nielsboy1998 |
Posted on 04-09-2013 21:53
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Wilier wrote:
Added selections from the Netherlands, South Africa, New Zealand and the United States to the list of participants.
Thanks to nielsboy for looking it up for me.
You're welcome  . I have some pre-selections for the roadrace. If you are interested:
Australia:
https://wielerflit...ekend.html
Poland:
https://wielerflit...klaar.html
Edited by nielsboy1998 on 04-09-2013 22:00
Always see the bright Side of life! |
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| Dippofix |
Posted on 04-09-2013 21:54
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I knew that Ireland were only bringing 4, but i thought that was due to the lack of quality.
Dan Martin, Nicolas Roche and Phil Deignan are all going and acccording to stickybottle.com, Ronan McLaughlin has the best chances to get the fourth spot.
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| steve smink |
Posted on 04-09-2013 22:17
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Dippofix wrote:
I knew that Ireland were only bringing 4, but i thought that was due to the lack of quality.
Dan Martin, Nicolas Roche and Phil Deignan are all going and acccording to stickybottle.com, Ronan McLaughlin has the best chances to get the fourth spot.
Yep that is the probable team for the WC Dan Martin obviously the big Irish hope. |
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| wackojackohighcliffe |
Posted on 04-09-2013 22:37
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Dippofix wrote:
You're joking with the qualifying nations, right? Iran 6, Marocco 6, Ireland 4?!?
Dan Martin alone probably has more WT Points than Marocco & Iran together.
It's not done on WT points though. |
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| fosforgasXIII |
Posted on 04-09-2013 22:42
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Kristof Vandewalle and Thomas De Gendt will ride the ITT for Belgium. Our road team will be selected after the Vuelta. |
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| fosforgasXIII |
Posted on 04-09-2013 22:48
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Why can Great-Britain only send 8 riders? They were in the UCI top 10, or is this again some weird UCI-rule I don't know the existence of? |
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 04-09-2013 22:52
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fosforgasXIII wrote:
Why can Great-Britain only send 8 riders? They were in the UCI top 10, or is this again some weird UCI-rule I don't know the existence of?
They only have 8 riders scoring WT points
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| nielsboy1998 |
Posted on 04-09-2013 22:53
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fosforgasXIII wrote:
Why can Great-Britain only send 8 riders? They were in the UCI top 10, or is this again some weird UCI-rule I don't know the existence of?
Because the continental tours . Marcocco has win for example the Africa tour and may select 6 riders.
Always see the bright Side of life! |
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| Alakagom |
Posted on 04-09-2013 22:57
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Spilak23 wrote:
fosforgasXIII wrote:
Why can Great-Britain only send 8 riders? They were in the UCI top 10, or is this again some weird UCI-rule I don't know the existence of?
They only have 8 riders scoring WT points
Nope. Colombia has 9 riders with only 4 riders scoring WT points for example 
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 04-09-2013 23:01
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Alakagom wrote:
Spilak23 wrote:
fosforgasXIII wrote:
Why can Great-Britain only send 8 riders? They were in the UCI top 10, or is this again some weird UCI-rule I don't know the existence of?
They only have 8 riders scoring WT points
Nope. Colombia has 9 riders with only 4 riders scoring WT points for example
Colombia gets those 5 other riders because of their ranking on the American circuit.
Though it's worth noting that both Duarte and Atapuma also scored wt-points but they don't count.... UCI Rules 
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| Dippofix |
Posted on 04-09-2013 23:15
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Why do they not just base it on something like the CQ-Ranking or something similar?
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