Come on Jacdk, you gotta look at the bigger picture.
Out of the 5 best riders in the mountains, only 1 is present in Dauphine: Contador. Majka, Rogers and Roche all rode the Giro with relatively great success and you cant expect neither of those to be present here. The last one is Kreuziger who always kinda has favored Suisse and on top of that, I think Saxo wants to get the WC-points in Suisse (same move Movistar made -Quintana for Giro/Vuelta and Valverde Tour/Vuelta to get maximum points). Imo, you cant expect to have one of those riders present here and in the big picture, I think the right decisions has been made. Afterall, its just Dauphine and as someone mentioned, who expected that Alberto was this better than Froome? No one. Everyone expected Sky to take control on the mountain stages and let Contador and Froome duel it out on the last 5 kilometers. You dont necessarily needs good helpers in that instance, allthough its - oo course - a plus if you are able to have guys who can hang unto Porte and Nieve.
Then you can divide the team further, as the they also have som very decent riders in the mountains: CAS, Hernandez, Paulinho, 2 of those were presents and to be fair, they didnt deliver today. Fair and square didnt deliver, but those things happen. I doubt they had been able to do so much against such a break afterall, only Sky as a team was able to that or Tinkoff Saxo with help from a team like Astana. You cant punch the rest of the squad - they dont have the level to control a stage like this with the overall GC guys attacking.
The goal was to beat Froome or at least stick to him and they succeded. I dont know how you can blame Riis for that - he simply picked those guys he had available. You can make a point Kreuziger shoulda been here, but its not bad to have a super-lieutenant ride as a captain before Suisse with the possibility of winning.
Of course as the race leader Contador had to mostly focus on Froome. But as the Mentheour saying goes : an intelligent cyclist is an aberration. Froome was the runner up, but there were other riders in the race.
If Riis oh-so-praised tactical sense was half acute, with the ear speakers and the rest of the means at his disposal, TST could have realised earlier that other riders were a threat to Contador's jersey.
It's not only Contador or his (lack of) team mates that are to blame, it's their tactics today, in a broad sense.
You must be joking, right? Didn't expect BS like that coming from one of the most respected members in this community.
Riis123 wrote:
Come on Jacdk, you gotta look at the bigger picture.
Out of the 5 best riders in the mountains, only 1 is present in Dauphine: Contador. Majka, Rogers and Roche all rode the Giro with relatively great success and you cant expect neither of those to be present here. The last one is Kreuziger who always kinda has favored Suisse and on top of that, I think Saxo wants to get the WC-points in Suisse (same move Movistar made -Quintana for Giro/Vuelta and Valverde Tour/Vuelta to get maximum points). Imo, you cant expect to have one of those riders present here and in the big picture, I think the right decisions has been made. Afterall, its just Dauphine and as someone mentioned, who expected that Alberto was this better than Froome? No one. Everyone expected Sky to take control on the mountain stages and let Contador and Froome duel it out on the last 5 kilometers. You dont necessarily needs good helpers in that instance, allthough its - oo course - a plus if you are able to have guys who can hang unto Porte and Nieve.
Then you can divide the team further, as the they also have som very decent riders in the mountains: CAS, Hernandez, Paulinho, 2 of those were presents and to be fair, they didnt deliver today. Fair and square didnt deliver, but those things happen. I doubt they had been able to do so much against such a break afterall, only Sky as a team was able to that or Tinkoff Saxo with help from a team like Astana. You cant punch the rest of the squad - they dont have the level to control a stage like this with the overall GC guys attacking.
The goal was to beat Froome or at least stick to him and they succeded. I dont know how you can blame Riis for that - he simply picked those guys he had available. You can make a point Kreuziger shoulda been here, but its not bad to have a super-lieutenant ride as a captain before Suisse with the possibility of winning.
I am indeed looking at the bigger picture and it scares me to see how much Riis actually messed up.
Yes, out of the best riders most rode Giro and with Kreuziger at Sussi it was going to be a hard time sending the absolute best, but still even then a top 10 Tier 1 team should be able to have more support for a world-class rider like Contador, after all its not like they did anything at all for him during the week, if you look at the race there was one time where paulinho tried but failed miserably and couldn't even help Contador when he tried to attack and use him as a stepping stone.
Hernandez is past his prime so is Paulinho and i think they are more at Saxobank because there isn't any real alternatives in that price range.
All in all it was a disappointing race by his team mates and none of them should even think about putting a tick in calender for TdF or Vuelta.
Of course as the race leader Contador had to mostly focus on Froome. But as the Mentheour saying goes : an intelligent cyclist is an aberration. Froome was the runner up, but there were other riders in the race.
If Riis oh-so-praised tactical sense was half acute, with the ear speakers and the rest of the means at his disposal, TST could have realised earlier that other riders were a threat to Contador's jersey.
It's not only Contador or his (lack of) team mates that are to blame, it's their tactics today, in a broad sense.
You must be joking, right? Didn't expect BS like that coming from one of the most respected members in this community.
Obviously I didn't see the stage, as they wouldn't broadcast it on the usual channels, so any of my opinions is mostly based on twitter's live reports.
But, 'joking' ? I believe not.
Let's rephrase :
TST played whatever little cards they had, which, I believe, consisted in believing Sky was still wanting to target the GC with Froome. That implied their (Sky's) collective power would neutralize (not necessarily catch, but maintain a small enough gap) the large breakaway, otherwise there'd be no point for Froome to beat Contador if X or Y beat them both in the meantime. Especially after Sky tried a collective move, the burden was on them.
It turned out Sky couldn't do that, either because there were more guys or more efficient guys in the break, either because Froome was simply too weak. Time for Contador/Riis to realize that, drop them and try to come back, it was simply too late.
Had they figured earlier that the time gap to the break (especially given who was in it) was becoming a threat to Contador's GC ambitions, they'd have gotten him on the move earlier.
They miscalculated or misapprehended the different forces at play.
Or in short : of course a strong mountain team around Countador could have helped him greatly, but he could still have won the GC 'on his own' had they not blundered their tactics of the day.
Edited by Aquarius on 15-06-2014 19:00
Of course as the race leader Contador had to mostly focus on Froome. But as the Mentheour saying goes : an intelligent cyclist is an aberration. Froome was the runner up, but there were other riders in the race.
If Riis oh-so-praised tactical sense was half acute, with the ear speakers and the rest of the means at his disposal, TST could have realised earlier that other riders were a threat to Contador's jersey.
It's not only Contador or his (lack of) team mates that are to blame, it's their tactics today, in a broad sense.
You must be joking, right? Didn't expect BS like that coming from one of the most respected members in this community.
Obviously I didn't see the stage, as they wouldn't broadcast it on the usual channels, so any of my opinions is mostly based on twitter's live reports.
But, 'joking' ? I believe not.
Let's rephrase :
TST played whatever little cards they had, which, I believe, consisted in believing Sky was still wanting to target the GC with Froome. That implied their (Sky's) collective power would neutralize (not necessarily catch, but maintain a small enough gap) the large breakaway, otherwise there'd be no point for Froome to beat Contador if X or Y beat them both in the meantime. Especially after Sky tried a collective move, the burden was on them.
It turned out Sky couldn't do that, either because there were more guys or more efficient guys in the break, either because Froome was simply too weak. Time for Contador/Riis to realize that, drop them and try to come back, it was simply too late.
Had they figured earlier that the time gap to the break (especially given who was in it) was becoming a threat to Contador's GC ambitions, they'd have gotten him on the move earlier.
They miscalculated or misapprehended the different forces at play.
Or in short : of course a strong mountain team around Countador could have helped him greatly, but he could still have won the GC 'on his own' had they not blundered their tactics of the day.
What you are implying is that Contador should have attacked earlier? (Because only way he could have caught the first group is by attack, cause Saxo tried to chase at first but even with help of IAM weren't strong eneough and gap was still growing). But he couldn't have done it earlier, cause attacking in valley with Sky having 3 riders in group, Kelderman having Keizer and Nibali having Westra would be pointless.
So he did attack as soon as second to last climb started and looked gased out by the end, could you imagine what had happened to him on last climb if he would have attacked 10-20 km earlier?
The only thing he could have done is to follow early attack, but at the time it seemed illogical, cause yellow jersey never does that especially if it's closest rival is still in your group.
Only time where Contador had a better chance to bridge to the first group, was when Kelderman and Nibali attacked, he could have followed and cooperated, considering that Nibali had 2 domestiques and Kelderman had 1 and fact that their interests were same. But at the same time, Sky seemed to have same tactic as Saxo, they will only follow/chase if Contador attacks.
In this race Contador did what his goal was and that is gain a psychological advantage over Froome. This year he has beaten in staight up battle two best climbers in the world and guys how put miles on him in last years Tour - Froome and Quintana. So this has been nothing but success for him.
Move earlier? You mean on his own? Contador nearly bonked in the end, he was losing second on second in that last kilometer. Had he attacked a few kilometers earlier, it'd have been worse for him.
Contador played his cards great the way that they were dealt to him. Everybody knew his team was weak, but that he could hang onto Froome. This forced the hand of SKY. Unfortunately for Contador, SKY wanted to be "unpredictable" and put 3 riders into the breakaway. This is how the freakingly huge and strong breakaway got away. There were so many engines in that group and a bunch of GC riders. Tinkoff all alone.
However, since guys like Talansky were in the break, SKY realized that they are basically riding Froome off the podium - they did realize too late. It went from bad to worse, when Nibali set off with his guys. Granted, this should have been the move Contador should have followed, but I think he closed a gap to Froome merely seconds before. Contador then hang on to Froome until he knew he had to set off. It almost worked out, he basically destroyed the road up ahead and gaining back so much time was impressive, but the last climb... well, that was way too much.
Tactics were alright yeah, and his legs were great too. But there's only so much one rider can do. Fact is, today's racing was anarchistic racing at its best, without real control. It was wild. Just because they did not win, does not mean that he made a mistake today. He just can't follow each and everyone, and they knew that early on.
EDIT Basically zabel'd there but in what fashion. Edited by Shonak on 15-06-2014 19:28
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
Fine then. I didn't understand it that way from twitter reports, and anyway the outcome pleases me more than I expected.
Still, knowing his team was weak, it was unwise/dangerous to let a large group with top 10 guys + 3 Sky riders go, knowing he'd struggle to chase. I've no idea where he was positioned then, and it's easy to say afterwards, but he should have joined that group. Of course they wouldn't have gone anywhere, but the threat would have been annihilated.
Aquarius wrote:
Fine then. I didn't understand it that way from twitter reports, and anyway the outcome pleases me more than I expected.
Still, knowing his team was weak, it was unwise/dangerous to let a large group with top 10 guys + 3 Sky riders go, knowing he'd struggle to chase. I've no idea where he was positioned then, and it's easy to say afterwards, but he should have joined that group. Of course they wouldn't have gone anywhere, but the threat would have been annihilated.
But following that big group would make Sky follow/chase, which would fuel new attacks and what Contador would do then? Follow again? He can't follow anyone, sooner or later he will be done. And knowing that there were still 100 km to ride and two 1.cat climbs, it would get pretty ugly for Contador. Remember what happened to him few years back in P-N, when he tried to follow separate attacks from Chava, LLS and Colom on that last stage?
What happened in the early part of the race is guess-work I think, but I think you imagine it to be easier than it actually was.
Fact is that over 20 riders were in the breakaway after the first climb(s). Tinkoff riders were hardly to be seen in the peloton, and no Tinkoff riders were really any help to him. He was alone early on.
Tejay Van Garderen was apparently really keen on forming a break (I read somewhere) and the guy wanted this thing real badly. I think Contador was keeping his eyes on Froome in this hectic, fully knowing that if Froome was gone, he'd not only lost the race but also the morale and confidence of the past days. You have to keep in mind that for Contador it was all about the duel against Froome. Even a guy like Nibali appeared to be merely a side-note in the end when Contador overtook him.
Seeing how SKY had 3 riders upfront in the breakaway, it's clear that they wanted to "dispatch" Contador from Froome at an early point but Contador did right on keeping Froome in check. There's not much else he was able to do without a team at his side.
He may have lost the race but at least he had the chance in the way he was riding. If he had followed various breakaway attempts, from Talansky to VDB, Nibali and Froome, he would have cracked and had been really, really all alone.
EDIT Argh again zabel'd, but granted: this post did take me a life-time to post.
Another Edit: Nibali attacked with Astana boys and he was cooked in the end. Same goes for Fuglsang. Only Kelderman managed to survive from that group - and although I think Kelderman did work, imagine the difference if it had been Contador in that group too, who would have been forced to work by Nibali?
Edited by Shonak on 15-06-2014 19:54
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
With Nibali not being very promising atm, how do you guys feel about Fuglsang's role come Tour de France? I think his role will be the same as Klöden's in 2004 and 2005, more or less riding his own race without being locked as a helper, unless Nibali has a chance of actually winning the race (which i hihgly doubt).
cactus-jack wrote:
I didn't get to see the stage, but I checked the result just now.
What the holy tit-swinging Jesus happened?
remember what Floyd Landis did at the 17th stage of the 2006 TdF. that happend. well maybe Pereiro at the 13th stage of the same TdF is a better comparisment
cactus-jack wrote:
I didn't get to see the stage, but I checked the result just now.
What the holy tit-swinging Jesus happened?
Huge break including great climbers. Peloton doesn't properly chase. Riders attack from the peloton. Froome collapses. Break wins. Talansky was in the break and wins GC.
Stage was pretty cool though Edited by Jesleyh on 15-06-2014 20:56
cactus-jack wrote:
I didn't get to see the stage, but I checked the result just now.
What the holy tit-swinging Jesus happened?
remember what Floyd Landis did at the 17th stage of the 2006 TdF. that happend. well maybe Pereiro at the 13th stage of the same TdF is a better comparisment
More like the 2010 Giro stage to L'Aquila, but with more attentive GC riders, I'd say.
cactus-jack wrote:
I didn't get to see the stage, but I checked the result just now.
What the holy tit-swinging Jesus happened?
remember what Floyd Landis did at the 17th stage of the 2006 TdF. that happend. well maybe Pereiro at the 13th stage of the same TdF is a better comparisment
What's your deal with Talansky man,comparing his ride with Landis,are you serious,did you see the guys that were in the breakaway,pretty strong ones i reckon,he didn't do a solo ride throughout the stage and even in the final climbs VDB helped him.
Saying that a big shout out to Hesjedal who was a beast not only today in the break but also yesterday when he pulled him back to Froome,he was instrumental to Talansky win the GC,
Also I'm very glad Talansky won,it's nice too see these young guns starting to win the GC of the one week world tour races.
As for the Contador talks it was clear that is team failed him and from that point on he was marking Froome and when he saw Froome wasn't the threat it was too late to bridge the gap.
Overall in spite of losing the GC,Contador is problably very happy with himself,he shown that is ready to take on Froome in the Tour and that was his goal in the Dauphine,measuring himself against Froome.
TST and Contador allowed break to go, maybe thinking that Sky will get it back as Froome will also want to have a crack to win this. But then some Sky riders went ahead and TST were chasing till Col de Saisies when Froome attacked with Thomas and Xandio at which point Contador and Nibali got back to him at 90 kms to go. From this point he was alone. And you need strong teammate to get back because Froome will just push on as he did.
It would have still been okay for Contador had Sky continued to set pace. They even got Porte from front group. Got gap down to 1m to Talansky group. But then I think Froome and Sky realised, Froome did not have what it takes in finale and wanted Contador to burn himself which he did not do.
So in the end, when others attacked Froome and Contador were just looking at each other. And Contador did not still realize why Froome was not chasing and he waited like till gap was almost 3 mins to attack Froome and chase Talansky. In the end he was 1 min short.
