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PCMdaily DB Stat Discussion
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 31-01-2015 20:58
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18168
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Idk Froome was very good in 3rd week in 2011 and 2012 (yes it's a while ago). I didn't see much of 2013 but he was hardly poor, Quintana basically beating him though ability rather than freshness
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 31-01-2015 21:09
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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matt17br wrote:
And why are you talking about Timetrial  ?
Recuperation is all aboit the third week, and you are right saying that Quintana is a pure climber. But if we'd follow your argumentation, we would lower by at least 2 Froome's mountain skill because he's not a pure climber and he can only win gts by long time trials. That is partly true, but can we actually do that? No, obviously not!
So, I was saying that Froome deserves a low recuperation stat because that is like in real life! He loses shape in the 3rd week and hes never done completely well in a gt 3rd week, so that's it. Quintana, on the other hand is the best rider under the recuperation skill because he's kinda superior in every gts 3rd week he took part to.
I never said I would lower froome MO because he's not a pure climber it makes no sense at all. Don't get me wrong but froome is an excellent climber and he showed it too many times in every grand tour. The only reason why I said Quintana is a pure climber is because he only weigh 59kg while froome weigh 71kg so there's a big difference and Quintana got the advantage but imagine 2 seconds if they were the same weight, froome would be a beast because the weight plays a major role in climbing.
I wouldn't say that Quintana is the best rider under recuperation skill because when he took part in the tour de france 2013 he wasn't the leader he came from nowhere and took the second place because no one didn't find him dangerous he was recuperating while the leaders were tired. As for the giro 2014 there wasn't any rivalry for him, only uran who I think would not have lost the giro if it wasn't for the descent with controversy. The vuelta was supposed to be the perfect time for quintana to show what he can do against best GC but it never happened because of his crash. |
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 31-01-2015 21:15
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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fidjim2013 wrote:
The only reason why I said Quintana is a pure climber is because he only weigh 59kg while froome weigh 71kg so there's a big difference and Quintana got the advantage but imagine 2 seconds if they were the same weight, froome would be a beast because the weight plays a major role in climbing.
WTF...with that statement, Tony Martin would be a GT condender..."If you imagine, how good he would be, if he would be lighter..."
BTW: Is Tonys Downhill really that bad?...I think he has 69 in your db....
Edited by Paul23 on 31-01-2015 21:16
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 31-01-2015 21:19
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
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PCM$: 300.00
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Jesleyh wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
matt17br wrote:
Is really losing a bunch of seconds to Quintana twice dominating?
In a grand tour every second matter and if you look carefully in this tour 2015 the winner will not win by large margin because there's no time trial. Quintana is very good in mountain no denying but he's more of a pure climber than a complete rider and the reason is because he's not good in time trial. Only guys like froome, contador, and nibali have some decent time trial skills.
No, you're getting him wrong. Matt pointed out that Froome was not as dominating in the final 2013 Tour week, in fact, he showed signs of weakness and therefore Quintana actually beat him multiple times in the last week.
Of course froome wasn't as dominating because he was leading by more than 4 minutes so there wasn't any reason for him to follow Quintana. Quintana had more freshness he wasn't the leader at the start of the tour 2013 so he had time to recuperate while froome was constantly trying to protect his jersey from serious contenders. |
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 31-01-2015 21:21
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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Paul23 wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
The only reason why I said Quintana is a pure climber is because he only weigh 59kg while froome weigh 71kg so there's a big difference and Quintana got the advantage but imagine 2 seconds if they were the same weight, froome would be a beast because the weight plays a major role in climbing.
WTF...with that statement, Tony Martin would be a GT condender..."If you imagine, how good he would be, if he would be lighter..."
BTW: Is Tonys Downhill really that bad?...I think he has 69 in your db....
Tony would never be that good in mountain even if he was lighter he wouldn't be able to match big contenders, he's not even a GC contender |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 29-09-2024 06:16
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| matt17br |
Posted on 31-01-2015 22:33
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
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Gotta verify it by Im quite sure Martin has got 73 or 74 after the Tour...
Also you should take into account 2014 giro as for Quintana's recuperation, that didn't came out of nowhere, but was actually Valverde main domestique and movistars co-captain, then Valverde suffered some stages (in which Quintana spent energies for him) and then the latter became main captain.
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 31-01-2015 22:46
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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@Matt nice that Tonys downhill stat will increase.
@fidjim: Did you know that the Panzerwagen was a climber when he started his career? He could easily pull of a Wiggins later in his career. 10kg less weight should easily increase his MO stat by 7 or something like that.
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 31-01-2015 22:50
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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matt17br wrote:
Gotta verify it by Im quite sure Martin has got 73 or 74 after the Tour...
Also you should take into account 2014 giro as for Quintana's recuperation, that didn't came out of nowhere, but was actually Valverde main domestique and movistars co-captain, then Valverde suffered some stages (in which Quintana spent energies for him) and then the latter became main captain.
Quintana was only good during the third week of the giro, I know he's got good recuperation but it doesn't mean he should have better recuperation. From your point of view you think Quintana deserve the better recuperation stat. What about Fabio aru ? He did the same thing as Quintana, he came out from nowhere to take the 3rd overall in the giro 2014. Fabio aru wasn't the leader at the start of the giro, he had more freshness. So basically aru did the same thing as Quintana did 2 years ago in the giro 2014, and he doesn't have a high recuperation like Quintana. Quintana wasn't movistar co-captain at the start of the tour 2013, he was just a domestique so he had more freshness. He became captain because of valverde illness in the third week. Quintana didn't spend that much of energy for valverde he was also in breakaways. |
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 31-01-2015 22:52
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
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fidjim2013 wrote:
Quintana wasn't movistar co-captain at the start of the tour 2013, he was just a domestique so he had more freshness. .
Wrong! I have read an interview with Valverde, where he said that Quintana could also lead the Tour and that they will see how the race works out to define a leader.
Edited by Paul23 on 31-01-2015 22:53
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 31-01-2015 22:57
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
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Paul23 wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
Quintana wasn't movistar co-captain at the start of the tour 2013, he was just a domestique so he had more freshness. .
Wrong! I have read an interview with Valverde, where he said that Quintana could also lead the Tour and that they will see how the race works out to define a leader.
That was not the case during the tour 2013, at that time Quintana was like new to the cycling world and I don't think movistar would have give him the leader position when he had not made a single grand tour. |
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 31-01-2015 23:11
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
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Paul23 wrote:
@Matt nice that Tonys downhill stat will increase.
@fidjim: Did you know that the Panzerwagen was a climber when he started his career? He could easily pull of a Wiggins later in his career. 10kg less weight should easily increase his MO stat by 7 or something like that.
You are being crazy right now because he only has 3 more kg than froome and he's only 73 in mo while froome is 83 mo at 72kg |
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 31-01-2015 23:12
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18168
Joined: 12-05-2012
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*sigh*
I think Tom Scully could do with a boost in CB to around 70/71 *desparate plea to change the subject*
Edited by TheManxMissile on 31-01-2015 23:17
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 31-01-2015 23:16
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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fidjim2013 wrote:
Paul23 wrote:
@Matt nice that Tonys downhill stat will increase.
@fidjim: Did you know that the Panzerwagen was a climber when he started his career? He could easily pull of a Wiggins later in his career. 10kg less weight should easily increase his MO stat by 7 or something like that.
You are being crazy right now because he only has 3 more kg than froome and he's only 73 in mo while froome is 83 mo at 72kg
Mission completed. I was showing you how senseless your statement was.
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 31-01-2015 23:21
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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Paul23 wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
Paul23 wrote:
@Matt nice that Tonys downhill stat will increase.
@fidjim: Did you know that the Panzerwagen was a climber when he started his career? He could easily pull of a Wiggins later in his career. 10kg less weight should easily increase his MO stat by 7 or something like that.
You are being crazy right now because he only has 3 more kg than froome and he's only 73 in mo while froome is 83 mo at 72kg
Mission completed. I was showing you how senseless your statement was.
What is your next mission right now |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 01-02-2015 10:05
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Guys stop with theoric statements right now. Nobody cares about them.
Quintana was clearly co-captain in Tour 2013, he was a bit of a domestique and on planet earth normally domestiques spend more energies than the leader, so it doesn't make sense at all. Nonetheless, Quintana didn't spend the energies that normally a domestique spends because he wasn't his main domestique, he was a bit of a second option if Valverde would have struggled, what indeed happened, but you must take into account that he spent energies for Valverde anyway!
Aru sure has a great recuperation skill but I wouldn't rate it as high as Quintana. Aru struggled in Zoncolan's stage for example and same gone for Ancares' stage where he lost a bit of time to Valverde and Rodriguez, that is a bit due to his lower climbing skill, but also due to his rec, that can still get better imo.
I think that Martin's stat was already updated in the V1.5 and then in the V2 to 73/74. Am I wrong? Can't check right now. If not it will upgraded for sure, 69 is a bit too low.
Edited by matt17br on 01-02-2015 10:05
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 01-02-2015 18:27
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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matt17br wrote:
Guys stop with theoric statements right now. Nobody cares about them.
Quintana was clearly co-captain in Tour 2013, he was a bit of a domestique and on planet earth normally domestiques spend more energies than the leader, so it doesn't make sense at all. Nonetheless, Quintana didn't spend the energies that normally a domestique spends because he wasn't his main domestique, he was a bit of a second option if Valverde would have struggled, what indeed happened, but you must take into account that he spent energies for Valverde anyway!
Aru sure has a great recuperation skill but I wouldn't rate it as high as Quintana. Aru struggled in Zoncolan's stage for example and same gone for Ancares' stage where he lost a bit of time to Valverde and Rodriguez, that is a bit due to his lower climbing skill, but also due to his rec, that can still get better imo.
I think that Martin's stat was already updated in the V1.5 and then in the V2 to 73/74. Am I wrong? Can't check right now. If not it will upgraded for sure, 69 is a bit too low.
You are right and thanks for backing up your arguments
Btw martin is 73 downhill |
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 01-02-2015 18:36
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World Champion
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TheManxMissile wrote:
I think Tom Scully could do with a boost in CB to around 70/71
Thank you!
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 01-02-2015 22:57
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Sprinter
Posts: 1961
Joined: 10-04-2013
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There are some good arguments for and against Froome and Contador about who should have the best acceleration. As stated Contador has a great acceleration but the problem is with Froome, as he really doesn't accelerate like other people. Contador accelerates in a normal style, whereas Froome has his famous 'crazy sprint' uphill which I guess is hard to incorporate in the stats properly.
I also think that Rodriguez being so much higher like 5 points in acc is a bit much and also I've never ever really noticed Uran accelerating that much so seems quite high too.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 01-02-2015 22:58
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 01-02-2015 23:20
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
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Tafiolmo wrote:
There are some good arguments for and against Froome and Contador about who should have the best acceleration. As stated Contador has a great acceleration but the problem is with Froome, as he really doesn't accelerate like other people. Contador accelerates in a normal style, whereas Froome has his famous 'crazy sprint' uphill which I guess is hard to incorporate in the stats properly.
I also think that Rodriguez being so much higher like 5 points in acc is a bit much and also I've never ever really noticed Uran accelerating that much so seems quite high too.
exactly that's true statement right here |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 02-02-2015 14:08
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
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Tafiolmo wrote:
There are some good arguments for and against Froome and Contador about who should have the best acceleration. As stated Contador has a great acceleration but the problem is with Froome, as he really doesn't accelerate like other people. Contador accelerates in a normal style, whereas Froome has his famous 'crazy sprint' uphill which I guess is hard to incorporate in the stats properly.
I also think that Rodriguez being so much higher like 5 points in acc is a bit much and also I've never ever really noticed Uran accelerating that much so seems quite high too.
Exactly, it's impossible, unless Cyanide implements some kind of animations/additional stats that looks quite impossible to me right now..
Rodriguez acceleration stat is deserved imo, it may turn out that it will advantage him a bit too much on some mountain stages, but if we wouldn't give him such a high stat he may be DISadvantaged in the Ardennes/Hilly Classics. It's impossible to make it 100% realistic, but that's the closest way imo. Uran acc may be decreased ofc 
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