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PCMdaily DB Stat Discussion
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 24-01-2015 00:56
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
Joined: 13-04-2008
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Ohh would be perfect to add Jacub Mareczko in the DB. Another good and young rider |
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 24-01-2015 01:17
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
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Paul23 wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
Paul23 wrote:
tbh, I would like to see Degenkolb with a higher SP than Bouhanni and Demare. But with the same/or a lower ACC. But when Bouhanni gets 80 Sp, it would be overkill to give Degenkolb 81, i think. However, could be that i have this opinion, because I'm german.
I agree degenkolb would deserve a higher SP than Demare but no higher than bouhanni because if you looked carefully to their matchup in real life in the last vuelta they were quite even.
I wouldn't think so...Bouhanni only won, when his leadout was perfect. Degenkolb could win the green jersey at the end...I would think Bouhanni would deserve a higher HI atm(i don't know what he has atm)
Bouhanni's wins doesn't come from nowhere and he won the sprint jersey in the giro and got 3 wins, he won 2 times in the vuelta and he would have won probably more if he hadn't leave the vuelta. Nowadays most sprinters win with a perfect leadout, look at sprinters like Cavendish, greipel or kittel they got good train. By the way in the last database bouhanni is 72 HI one lower than degenkolb and kristoff which is perfect |
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 24-01-2015 01:34
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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fidjim2013 wrote:
Paul23 wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
Paul23 wrote:
tbh, I would like to see Degenkolb with a higher SP than Bouhanni and Demare. But with the same/or a lower ACC. But when Bouhanni gets 80 Sp, it would be overkill to give Degenkolb 81, i think. However, could be that i have this opinion, because I'm german.
I agree degenkolb would deserve a higher SP than Demare but no higher than bouhanni because if you looked carefully to their matchup in real life in the last vuelta they were quite even.
I wouldn't think so...Bouhanni only won, when his leadout was perfect. Degenkolb could win the green jersey at the end...I would think Bouhanni would deserve a higher HI atm(i don't know what he has atm)
Bouhanni's wins doesn't come from nowhere and he won the sprint jersey in the giro and got 3 wins, he won 2 times in the vuelta and he would have won probably more if he hadn't leave the vuelta. Nowadays most sprinters win with a perfect leadout, look at sprinters like Cavendish, greipel or kittel they got good train. By the way in the last database bouhanni is 72 HI one lower than degenkolb and kristoff which is perfect
He hadn't won the red jersey in the giro, if Kittel would not left...
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 24-01-2015 01:42
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
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Paul23 wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
Paul23 wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
Paul23 wrote:
tbh, I would like to see Degenkolb with a higher SP than Bouhanni and Demare. But with the same/or a lower ACC. But when Bouhanni gets 80 Sp, it would be overkill to give Degenkolb 81, i think. However, could be that i have this opinion, because I'm german.
I agree degenkolb would deserve a higher SP than Demare but no higher than bouhanni because if you looked carefully to their matchup in real life in the last vuelta they were quite even.
I wouldn't think so...Bouhanni only won, when his leadout was perfect. Degenkolb could win the green jersey at the end...I would think Bouhanni would deserve a higher HI atm(i don't know what he has atm)
Bouhanni's wins doesn't come from nowhere and he won the sprint jersey in the giro and got 3 wins, he won 2 times in the vuelta and he would have won probably more if he hadn't leave the vuelta. Nowadays most sprinters win with a perfect leadout, look at sprinters like Cavendish, greipel or kittel they got good train. By the way in the last database bouhanni is 72 HI one lower than degenkolb and kristoff which is perfect
He hadn't won the red jersey in the giro, if Kittel would not left...
I agree with you but kittel is on another level he's a very fast sprinter and he's got the best train in the peloton which helps him a lot. If you look at luka mezgec he was a very good leadout for kittel in the giro. When you look in the TDF kittel won 4 stages but it's because he's got john degenkolb as a leadout, and in almost any team john degenkolb would be the main sprinter. Now you can understand how this team are winning so easily sprint stages. |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 24-01-2015 11:05
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Directeur Sportif
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Guys, go take a look at their actual results please. Bouhanni had a tremendous season with a bunch of truly important wins and he sure deserves such an high sprint stats, definitely not lower than Degenkolb, Paul! Go watch Vuelta's sprints, in 2 or 3 of them Bouhanni was quite unlucky 
Moreover, stating that Bouhanni has had a good season only because he won an -as you're statin- undeserved points jersey doesn't hold up at all. Perhaps he wouldn't have won the red jersey at the Giro with Kittel, but the latter is the rider that managed to dominate all the sprints he took part in the last 2 years and Bouhanni has still beaten lots of good sprinters like Nizzolo, Viviani or Swift in every single sprint, except the last one in Trieste
Demare hasn't won a sprint in a GT yet, you're right, but don't you think that those 14 victories in 2014 can justify 80? 2 3rd spots in the Tour, when he clearly wasn't in a Tour shape, plus lots of 2nd places, of which one at Gent-Wevelgem, behind Degenkolb, that was a bit advantaged by his cobbles skills. We can add his victory in the French National Championship as icy on the cake, in front of Bouhanni.
I still need a reason why Degenkolb should have the same sprint stat as Greipel, and therefore a better stat than Kristoff, Bouhanni and Demare
Edited by matt17br on 24-01-2015 11:18
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 24-01-2015 11:19
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18168
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Well i still think Greipel and Kristoffs SP is too high, so that's my reasoning I could go back and dig up my arguments as to why Kristoff is over-rated but it didn't make a difference then so won't now. I'll just make these F*CKING POINTLESS MINOR PERSONAL PREFERENCES myself in my own db when it comes out
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| matt17br |
Posted on 24-01-2015 11:23
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Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
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TheManxMissile wrote:
Well i still think Greipel and Kristoffs SP is too high, so that's my reasoning I could go back and dig up my arguments as to why Kristoff is over-rated but it didn't make a difference then so won't now. I'll just make these F*CKING POINTLESS MINOR PERSONAL PREFERENCES myself in my own db when it comes out
Oh well, I guess that it made a difference as we lowered his sprint stat in the V1.5, and that's still the same in the V2, and will probably be so in the V2.1.
Anyway, I don't think that winning 2 stages at the Tour, Sanremo and Vattenfall would get him less than 80
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 24-01-2015 11:25
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18168
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matt17br wrote:
Anyway, I don't think that winning 2 stages at the Tour, Sanremo and Vattenfall would get him less than 80
Actually i think my arguement was more along the lines that other sprinters had beaten him more often in straight competition
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| matt17br |
Posted on 24-01-2015 11:31
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
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TheManxMissile wrote:
matt17br wrote:
Anyway, I don't think that winning 2 stages at the Tour, Sanremo and Vattenfall would get him less than 80
Actually i think my arguement was more along the lines that other sprinters had beaten him more often in straight competition
It doesn't look that obvious as you make it look like using pcs' head to head against say Bouhanni: https://www.procyclingstats.com/rider....oId=140633
Edited by matt17br on 24-01-2015 11:31
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 24-01-2015 21:54
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
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matt17br wrote:
Guys, go take a look at their actual results please. Bouhanni had a tremendous season with a bunch of truly important wins and he sure deserves such an high sprint stats, definitely not lower than Degenkolb, Paul! Go watch Vuelta's sprints, in 2 or 3 of them Bouhanni was quite unlucky
Moreover, stating that Bouhanni has had a good season only because he won an -as you're statin- undeserved points jersey doesn't hold up at all. Perhaps he wouldn't have won the red jersey at the Giro with Kittel, but the latter is the rider that managed to dominate all the sprints he took part in the last 2 years and Bouhanni has still beaten lots of good sprinters like Nizzolo, Viviani or Swift in every single sprint, except the last one in Trieste
Demare hasn't won a sprint in a GT yet, you're right, but don't you think that those 14 victories in 2014 can justify 80? 2 3rd spots in the Tour, when he clearly wasn't in a Tour shape, plus lots of 2nd places, of which one at Gent-Wevelgem, behind Degenkolb, that was a bit advantaged by his cobbles skills. We can add his victory in the French National Championship as icy on the cake, in front of Bouhanni.
I still need a reason why Degenkolb should have the same sprint stat as Greipel, and therefore a better stat than Kristoff, Bouhanni and Demare
Those 14 victories of demare doesn't mean anything if he doesn't win against big sprinters. The quantity is not important its the quality of those wins |
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 24-01-2015 21:59
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
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matt17br wrote:
TheManxMissile wrote:
Well i still think Greipel and Kristoffs SP is too high, so that's my reasoning I could go back and dig up my arguments as to why Kristoff is over-rated but it didn't make a difference then so won't now. I'll just make these F*CKING POINTLESS MINOR PERSONAL PREFERENCES myself in my own db when it comes out
Oh well, I guess that it made a difference as we lowered his sprint stat in the V1.5, and that's still the same in the V2, and will probably be so in the V2.1.
Anyway, I don't think that winning 2 stages at the Tour, Sanremo and Vattenfall would get him less than 80
I don't understand why you think greipel and kristoff are overated. Greipel is 81SP 79ACC and Kristoff is 80SP 80ACC, its just fine considering they are fast sprinters |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 24-01-2015 22:45
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
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@fidjim I couldn't agree more about those stats indeed, what proves it is is that i partly set them  have you misunderstood my point?
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 25-01-2015 00:13
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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@matt it could be, that Degenkolbs stats are fine and that I just want them to be higher cause I am german...
but idk if you use pcs often to create stats.
but if you do, just look at this: https://www.procyc...oId=140765
Also I need to make my own db...I just would like to create some stats and after that get some opinions on them...
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| matt17br |
Posted on 25-01-2015 10:31
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
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Paul23 wrote:
@matt it could be, that Degenkolbs stats are fine and that I just want them to be higher cause I am german...
but idk if you use pcs often to create stats.
but if you do, just look at this: https://www.procyc...oId=140765
Also I need to make my own db...I just would like to create some stats and after that get some opinions on them...
Well, yes, we can't remember every single result of every single rider so we have to often take a look at pcs, cq or many other sites.
Had a look at that H2H, interesting one, but if you look better, Degenkolb dominates in 2012 compared to Bouhanni, while the 2013 and 2014 are mostly tied. Bouhanni wasn't in such an high level in 2012 yet
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 26-01-2015 01:42
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
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matt17br wrote:
Paul23 wrote:
@matt it could be, that Degenkolbs stats are fine and that I just want them to be higher cause I am german...
but idk if you use pcs often to create stats.
but if you do, just look at this: https://www.procyc...oId=140765
Also I need to make my own db...I just would like to create some stats and after that get some opinions on them...
Well, yes, we can't remember every single result of every single rider so we have to often take a look at pcs, cq or many other sites.
Had a look at that H2H, interesting one, but if you look better, Degenkolb dominates in 2012 compared to Bouhanni, while the 2013 and 2014 are mostly tied. Bouhanni wasn't in such an high level in 2012 yet
Dengenkolb is more of a classics sprinter like demare and kristoff while bouhanni is a pure sprinter he hasn't proved anything yet in classics |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 26-01-2015 09:00
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
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That's why he's a bit advantadged in the head 2 head, or season rankings, he can compete in more races and he's a pure sprinter.
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 26-01-2015 19:35
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Posts: 348
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matt17br wrote:
That's why he's a bit advantadged in the head 2 head, or season rankings, he can compete in more races and he's a pure sprinter.
If bouhanni can do better rankings with cofidis in 2015 than with FDJ he would definitely deserves better stats |
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 26-01-2015 22:22
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Posts: 348
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Why does Contador have better ACC than riders like froome, Kwiatkowski, and valverde ? |
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| matt17br |
Posted on 27-01-2015 16:47
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Directeur Sportif
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fidjim2013 wrote:
Why does Contador have better ACC than riders like froome, Kwiatkowski, and valverde ?
There must be a reason if we think so, in this case the reason are his attacks, a youtube video would do I guess
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 27-01-2015 17:34
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Posts: 348
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matt17br wrote:
fidjim2013 wrote:
Why does Contador have better ACC than riders like froome, Kwiatkowski, and valverde ?
There must be a reason if we think so, in this case the reason are his attacks, a youtube video would do I guess
If you look carefully since 2013 chris froome is doing better attacks than contador and if you look at the criterium du dauphine 2014 in stage 2 that's a great example. This year contador was mostly following big threats of GC he wasn't attacking that much like he was doing when he was younger. |
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
