Bill Maher sums it up pretty well with this...
The irony of religion is that because of its power to divert man to destructive courses, the world could actually come to an end. The plain fact is, religion must die for mankind to live. The hour is getting very late to be able to indulge in having in key decisions made by religious people. By irrationalists, by those who would steer the ship of state not by a compass, but by the equivalent of reading the entrails of a chicken. George Bush prayed a lot about Iraq, but he didn't learn a lot about it. Faith means making a virtue out of not thinking. It's nothing to brag about. And those who preach faith, and enable and elevate it are intellectual slaveholders, keeping mankind in a bondage to fantasy and nonsense that has spawned and justified so much lunacy and destruction. Religion is dangerous because it allows human beings who don't have all the answers to think that they do. Most people would think it's wonderful when someone says, "I'm willing, Lord! I'll do whatever you want me to do!" Except that since there are no gods actually talking to us, that void is filled in by people with their own corruptions and limitations and agendas. And anyone who tells you they know, they just know what happens when you die, I promise you, you don't. How can I be so sure? Because I don't know, and you do not possess mental powers that I do not. The only appropriate attitude for man to have about the big questions is not the arrogant certitude that is the hallmark of religion, but doubt. Doubt is humble, and that's what man needs to be, considering that human history is just a litany of getting shit dead wrong. This is why rational people, anti-religionists, must end their timidity and come out of the closet and assert themselves. And those who consider themselves only moderately religious really need to look in the mirror and realize that the solace and comfort that religion brings you actually comes at a terrible price. If you belonged to a political party or a social club that was tied to as much bigotry, misogyny, homophobia, violence, and sheer ignorance as religion is, you'd resign in protest. To do otherwise is to be an enabler, a mafia wife, for the true devils of extremism that draw their legitimacy from the billions of their fellow travelers. If the world does come to an end here, or wherever, or if it limps into the future, decimated by the effects of religion-inspired nuclear terrorism, let's remember what the real problem was that we learned how to precipitate mass death before we got past the neurological disorder of wishing for it. That's it. Grow up or die.
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Nationalism didn't cause the war, that's just what the world leaders needed of the people to fight their war. As usual, greed and a lust of power caused the wars
Spilak23 wrote:
Nationalism is what caused the world wars. Religion did not.
Sorry, but that argument is not entirely valid!
Studying history in school (and now historical geography in college!), I had to learn the following definition:
The concept of Nationalism is a mere desire of people who have the same ethinc background, speak the same language and HAVE THE SAME RELIGION, to group together to form a single nation!
Thus you are right, Nationalistic views were a factor of wars, ut the concept of nationalism builds heavily on three factors, including religion!
And Ian: Greed, lust, power... all are alternative words for superiority... And a country that feels superior to another nation is always convinced of themselves as beng superior in every single aspect, including religion...
I'm going to start a new religion where anyone asking what your religion is shall be stoned to death.
You will also not be able to practice your religion publically unless you meet another person of the same religion.
Also you are not allowed to wear/show anything identifying your allegience or otherwise state your membership of this religion.
Spilak23 wrote:
Nationalism is what caused the world wars. Religion did not.
Sorry, but that argument is not entirely valid!
Studying history in school (and now historical geography in college!), I had to learn the following definition:
The concept of Nationalism is a mere desire of people who have the same ethinc background, speak the same language and HAVE THE SAME RELIGION, to group together to form a single nation!
Thus you are right, Nationalistic views were a factor of wars, ut the concept of nationalism builds heavily on three factors, including religion!
And Ian: Greed, lust, power... all are alternative words for superiority... And a country that feels superior to another nation is always convinced of themselves as beng superior in every single aspect, including religion...
Could be right. I am currently studying the history of public law and learned that the role religion of religion in causing the world wars is way smaller than the role religion played in wars during the 16th/17th century.
Stating religion causes wars is quite a good statement but there are way better examples of that than the world wars.
Ian Butler wrote:
Nationalism didn't cause the war, that's just what the world leaders needed of the people to fight their war. As usual, greed and a lust of power caused the wars
Who are these world leaders you speak off?
The world wars were between Republics.
Edit: and now the religion thread has gone off topic. Sorry.
Edited by Spilak23 on 17-01-2013 18:39
Miggi: you didn't pay too much attention to history, did you? WW I wasn't caused by religion, and the main reason for WW II weren't religions either (although the anti-Semitism played a role).
WW I was caused by the assissination of Franz Ferdinand and the requests of Austia-Hungary to Serbia. When Serbia passed the ultimatum, Austria-Hungary declared war. Germany had a contract with Austria, thus got involved. Russia didn't want Austria-Hungary to gain more influence in the Balkan and interfered. Because France had a contract with Russia, they also got involved and the Brits had a contract with France.
WW II is more complex, but the acutal trigger was the misery in Germany after WW I (Treaty of Versailles and global economy crisis), the inaccurate consitution and the political situation (fear of communism, demcracy vs. monarchy, ...) which allowed Hitler to get Reich Chancellor.
The war started when Germany occupied Poland (which again was't caused by religion) and the UK and France declared war because Germany broke the Treaty of Versailles (they did before, but it was ignored).
Edited by felix_29 on 17-01-2013 18:40
miggi133 wrote:
BTW: Why did you leave Judaism out? That could be an indication about your view on people already...
I would like to know why Judaism should be included? He had the categories that would describe 93% of the worlds population, why do you think a religion which consist of 14 million people should have its own category?
I am an atheist myself. I am still part of the Danish National Church though, but that comes down to me being lazy, and it being complicated to leave.
The murder of Franz Ferdinand started WW1. There were a lot of tensions before that. Even without the murder of Franz Ferdinand, there would have been war.
fcancellara wrote:
Oh, I myself am Christian, but certainly not a good example:
- Last time I visited a church was over a year ago
- I never voluntarily read the Bible (only at primary school, which was a Christian one)
- I don't think the Bible's stories (especially in the Old Testament) are facts; rather methaphors.
- I do believe in evolution, which is in contradiction to the Bible. Also the big bang theory seems credible to me.
But the point is; everything must have started somewhere, for me that is God.
Exactly. Some things in the Bible are true, but it is absurd to think that most of them were. I am a Christian as I'm sure everyone here knows. And I do believe in evolution. Perhaps the Bible meant that these "days" God "built" the earth in were sort of eras of evolution. I don't know about the big bang, but it definetly is more possible than creationism.
First of all I am really impressed with this forum. Most forums I am on would have had this thread descending into chaos within the first page.
Without sounding controversial I would not be able to to understand any religion that discourages thinking and deliberation. That is the highest form of active pursuit of your faith and I do not believe that a religion can survive with blind faith as it would not be capable of surviving through troubled times which will always come along as one point in time, and if they do it would be due to full out devout fanaticism which is totally contradictory to what religion is all about
In response to the above quote the Bible is meant as the blueprint to the world. If you say it was written by God then it obviously has undeniable sophistication even greater than say the human world which has sophistication well above anything which Science has uncovered. Therefore it is only reasonable to assume that there are many different interpretations to the Bible with everyone being true. The complexity can involve secrets about the world which none of us has any clue of working out yet due to the fact that God is the fabric of the world subsequently whatever he writes is an indication of both hidden and open understandings. Once against the beauty of it is the unlimited depth which can be found within it. That is partially why the Bible is so revered as it gives us a slight glimpse into the workings of God. There are a couple of giant leaps there, but I am in a hurry..
The idea of the theory of evolution is well thought out but (I will go so far as saying this though it may hurt some people's heads) it is inherent within the creation and is merely a description of the world's existence. It can be used as a theory for a scenario without God, but I find it hard to state that is could be used to state God does not exist. I could state a number of scenarios which involve evolution and a world created by God. On that note though I am not a Christian and I have failed to ever grasp Christianity and the concepts behind it.
"That stage will start full gas, be ridden full gas and will finish full gas"
Ian Butler wrote:
Nationalism didn't cause the war, that's just what the world leaders needed of the people to fight their war. As usual, greed and a lust of power caused the wars
Who are these world leaders you speak off?
The world wars were between Republics.
That's a pretty naive view, most countries have a ruling class, whether they're a republic or not.
Ian Butler wrote:
Nationalism didn't cause the war, that's just what the world leaders needed of the people to fight their war. As usual, greed and a lust of power caused the wars
Who are these world leaders you speak off?
The world wars were between Republics.
That's a pretty naive view, most countries have a ruling class, whether they're a republic or not.
Indeed. Every country is run, either by the elite or by one dictator, sorry, "president".
Ian Butler wrote:
Nationalism didn't cause the war, that's just what the world leaders needed of the people to fight their war. As usual, greed and a lust of power caused the wars
Who are these world leaders you speak off?
The world wars were between Republics.
That's a pretty naive view, most countries have a ruling class, whether they're a republic or not.
Indeed. Every country is run, either by the elite or by one dictator, sorry, "president".
There is something called 'Seperation of Powers'
The WW's were not claims to power by single leaders but conflicts between whole nations.
shraggi wrote:
The idea of the theory of evolution is well thought out but (I will go so far as saying this though it may hurt some people's heads) it is inherent within the creation and is merely a description of the world's existence. It can be used as a theory for a scenario without God, but I find it hard to state that is could be used to state God does not exist. I could state a number of scenarios which involve evolution and a world created by God. On that note though I am not a Christian and I have failed to ever grasp Christianity and the concepts behind it.
First of all, I agree with your point. There's no way to prove that God doesn't exist. Consequentally, Evolution isn't either. That's why I'd call myself an Agnostic rather than an Atheist. Still: If you say that there is an omnipotent deity that has created us and is able to control our lives (if it wishes), that it appears logically to me, that you'd have the burden of proof (see Russell's Teapot). Not the other way around. Especially, if there are coherent scenarios without a God.
Ian Butler wrote:
Nationalism didn't cause the war, that's just what the world leaders needed of the people to fight their war. As usual, greed and a lust of power caused the wars
Who are these world leaders you speak off?
The world wars were between Republics.
That's a pretty naive view, most countries have a ruling class, whether they're a republic or not.
Indeed. Every country is run, either by the elite or by one dictator, sorry, "president".
There is something called 'Seperation of Powers'
The WW's were not claims to power by single leaders but conflicts between whole nations.
Sorry, no.
Those soldiers, my great-grandfather did not ask for war, the government did. Those people in Iraq did not want a bloodbath, it goes above their heads.
felix_29 wrote:
Miggi: you didn't pay too much attention to history, did you? WW I wasn't caused by religion, and the main reason for WW II weren't religions either (although the anti-Semitism played a role).
WW I was caused by the assissination of Franz Ferdinand and the requests of Austia-Hungary to Serbia. When Serbia passed the ultimatum, Austria-Hungary declared war. Germany had a contract with Austria, thus got involved. Russia didn't want Austria-Hungary to gain more influence in the Balkan and interfered. Because France had a contract with Russia, they also got involved and the Brits had a contract with France.
WW II is more complex, but the acutal trigger was the misery in Germany after WW I (Treaty of Versailles and global economy crisis), the inaccurate consitution and the political situation (fear of communism, demcracy vs. monarchy, ...) which allowed Hitler to get Reich Chancellor.
The war started when Germany occupied Poland (which again was't caused by religion) and the UK and France declared war because Germany broke the Treaty of Versailles (they did before, but it was ignored).
Did I ever say that the two world wars were cause by Religion? No i did not. I only said, that Spilaks argument, that the World Wars had nothing to do wth religion and were only a product of Nationalism was a bit far fetched, since "having the same religion" is one of the fundamental reasons of Nationalism, which is indeed the reason. But viewing nationalism without the religious influences is impossible!
Though lets play along here for a second:
As for Worldwar 1, you are speaking of the immediate causes... The war was long in the making...The causes you have mentioned for World War 1 are just a single corner piece of the puzzle... On top of that, Germany didnt have to join the war, they decided to. The contract between Austria and germany only said, that the two nations help each other if one of the two was attacked by a third power. If one of the two powers were to attack a third power, the seond power reserved the right to remain neutral. Austria declared war on serbia, after Wilhelm II gave them a card blanche, and assured them that germany would join, eventhough they didnt have to. If you look back at it now, one could even argue that a major war was inevitable from the day Bismarck took power in 1871 until the outbreak in 1914... Afterall, the reason why Bismarck tried to isolate GB was beause he feared revenge for the crowning of the German Emperor in Paris at the end of the German-French war, which was a result of german Nationalism! Plus, afterwards, Germany took in parts of France (Les regions Alsace et Lotrange) which were french. The nationalistic viws in france were, that those two regions belonged to them, same as the people in those regions felt that they belonged to France (This is nationalism again... Read the definition I provided carefully again )
And now to World war 2: Yes, Hitler rose from the Misery in germany, I give you that. But what did he promote? Essentially, He promoted the "Nationalstolz" by announcing to dismantle the treaty of versaille, the most demoralising piece of Paper for the German Nation. Nationalstolz and Nationalism arent that different. Afterall, part of Hitlers Philosophy was a "groß Deutsches Reich" in which all the germans could live (siehe: Lebensraum im Osten Politik)... Now if thats not Nationalism, I dont know...
So, to summarise: Did Religion cause the World Wars? NO!
Did Nationalism cause both World Wars? Yes
Is Religion an essential part of Nationalism? Yes
Without religion, Germany would probably never existed (afterall, the foundations were laid out by the Heiliges Römisches Reich Deutscher Nationen.)
My german History might be a rusty, being on sideline for one and a half year, but I still know my facts.
Spoiler
Besides, It took me to go abroad (or rather emigrate from germay) to actually learn about the World Wars in a more factual way. my School in germany rushed through the topics and I remember, the whole bismarck era, plus the first world war were shown us in a very short 45 minute film, and the next day we started with the financial crash... WW2 was gone through more thoroughly, but controversial topics werent taken pleasently...
EDIT: Sorry, I went quite off topic here, but I saw an easy opening to defend myself here..
Edited by miggi133 on 17-01-2013 19:13
Ian Butler wrote:
Nationalism didn't cause the war, that's just what the world leaders needed of the people to fight their war. As usual, greed and a lust of power caused the wars
Who are these world leaders you speak off?
The world wars were between Republics.
That's a pretty naive view, most countries have a ruling class, whether they're a republic or not.
Indeed. Every country is run, either by the elite or by one dictator, sorry, "president".
There is something called 'Seperation of Powers'
The WW's were not claims to power by single leaders but conflicts between whole nations.
Sorry, no.
Those soldiers, my great-grandfather did not ask for war, the government did. Those people in Iraq did not want a bloodbath, it goes above their heads.
The war in Iraq is for a part a war against terrorism. Those soldiers in Iraq were the same ones who's friends/family/neighbours/countrymen were killed on 9/11. A big part of them wanted to go to war against terrorism.
Your great grandfather had no other choice but to fight as other countries invaded his.
