dienblad wrote:
Well, if Horner has accomplished one thing in this Vuelta, besides becoming even stronger in the 3rd week of a tough GT, is that his way of riding is saring to make me believe Froome is clean.... Froome is younger, riding good for 2 years now (and not suddenly at the age of 67) and showed some weakness in the final week of the Tour. And if my memory isn't damaged too much by too much wine in the past months, I can't remember Froome doing 6,70 in the Tour (lease correct me if I'm wrong)....
No, Froome didn't do 6,7, I reckon he did 6,4 or something in Ax-3-Domaines though.
That being said, if you don't give the duration, that means crap.
So, Horner has apparently done 6,7 (I've read 6,85 too, not sure which one is right) during 16-17 minutes after 5 climbs in the third week of a GT, whereas Froome's biggest achievements in terms of Watts was at Ax where he did 6,4 or 6,5 W/kg during 22-23 minutes, after 8 days of racing and one mountain.
For efforts that last 20 to 60 minutes, and a 70 kg rider, the power loss is about 1 W/minute, which means one given rider would achieve 40 Watts more (average) on a 20 minutes efforts.
Have I written often enough how I don't have any faith in Froome and been logical enough to let people draw conclusions about Horner ?
Still, there's one thing that needs questioning about today's final climb results. Many contenders, including some I tend to believe they're clean, have set excellent times. Maybe a tailwind factor has been underestimated or something like that ?
Sure, he did nothing for years until flying up the climbs at the 2011 Vuelta.
Sure, he was in an obviously doped team back in 2008 with an infamous manager and walking positives as teammates.
Sure, he has associations with a known doping doctor.
But all those things also apply to Froome and we keep hearing that we can't accuse him, so stop saying bad things about Cobo.
Oh wait, Cobo's not british....carry on then.
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issoisso wrote:
You people have no right to rail on Cobo
Sure, he did nothing for years until flying up the climbs at the 2011 Vuelta.
Sure, he was in an obviously doped team back in 2008 with an infamous manager and walking positives as teammates.
Sure, he has associations with a known doping doctor.
But all those things also apply to Froome and we keep hearing that we can't accuse him, so stop saying bad things about Cobo.
Oh wait, Cobo's not british....carry on then.
This is so unfair. With Cobo. Cobo had shown waay more than Froome pre 2011. The problem of Cobo is that he's like Mayo, he's psichologically dependant on the people who sourround him (on the dope) so when he's not in the right environment (doping program) he just can't perform.
issoisso wrote:
You people have no right to rail on Cobo
Sure, he did nothing for years until flying up the climbs at the 2011 Vuelta.
Sure, he was in an obviously doped team back in 2008 with an infamous manager and walking positives as teammates.
Sure, he has associations with a known doping doctor.
But all those things also apply to Froome and we keep hearing that we can't accuse him, so stop saying bad things about Cobo.
StevenGreen wrote:
So, for all you horner haters: why are you so bitter about him just being awesome, I mean all that doping crap you are saying is just useless, unless there is actual proof. And in case you don't know what proof is, proof is not something you think is obvious.
It is really funny how you say that this vuelta is not living up to your expectations and that it is just total crap and so on, because it actually is a really good one, I mean there was nibbles who was the big favorite and than there comes this Chris Horner along and makes it all really interesting. There are only two mountain stages left and the two favorites are 3 away from each other.
So I guess what I am saying is, shut up and enjoy the show.
StevenGreen wrote:
What exactly is not living up to your expectations in this vuelta? Beside that you think Horner is a cheat , for which you do not have any proof?
Last year was a race, this year its a joke.
Also UCI should ban riders who use this grand tour as a prep for WC, its rediculous and shows a lot of disrespect for the Vuelta.
StevenGreen wrote:
What exactly is not living up to your expectations in this vuelta? Beside that you think Horner is a cheat , for which you do not have any proof?
Last year was a race, this year its a joke.
Also UCI should ban riders who use this grand tour as a prep for WC, its rediculous and shows a lot of disrespect for the Vuelta.
So would you ban riders from races like the Dauphine who use it as prep for the Tour? Or any other number of races on the calendar that riders use as prep for other goals? Also how would you enforce the rule? It just isn't practical at all. I think it makes the race interesting and we are still getting the GC contest with these other riders dropping out.
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StevenGreen wrote:
What exactly is not living up to your expectations in this vuelta? Beside that you think Horner is a cheat , for which you do not have any proof?
Last year was a race, this year its a joke.
Also UCI should ban riders who use this grand tour as a prep for WC, its rediculous and shows a lot of disrespect for the Vuelta.
So would you ban riders from races like the Dauphine who use it as prep for the Tour? Or any other number of races on the calendar that riders use as prep for other goals? Also how would you enforce the rule? It just isn't practical at all. I think it makes the race interesting and we are still getting the GC contest with these other riders dropping out.
I think what he is saying is riders like Gilbert, T. Martins and Cancellara joining Vuelta as prep and leaving after 2 weeks.
Personally speaking, I think, Vuelta sponsors would like these riders (Gilbert, T. Martins and Cancellara) for 2 weeks rather that some not so well known riders from these teams for 3 weeks. After all popularity is everything.
I just am starting to convince myself tat maybe cycling is on top of it's doping problem, that maybe Sky have just signed some really good riders, and then shit like this happens.
Lame
[url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182]Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
mb2612 wrote:
I just am starting to convince myself tat maybe cycling is on top of it's doping problem, that maybe Sky have just signed some really good riders, and then shit like this happens.
Lame
And as usual the level of delusion is staggering
It doesn't matter how obvious one gets, the fans from that country will always deny that the sky is blue to try to defend a doper.
I mean, we've gotten to the point where we're actually watching a joke. We literally are. Anyone saying Horner would win the Vuelta would be seen as a good joke to make fun of the obviously doped performances of the past two years, yet....it's happening.
It cannot possibly get any more ridiculous than a 42 year old who's shown nothing before and defends dopers like Armstrong, dominating a Grand Tour. It literally cannot. There is no situation anyone can come up with that is more ridiculous than this.
If anyone tried to come up with the most ridiculously over the top, blatantly doped hypothetical scenario possible, this is the scenario they'd come up.....yet some fans still insist on defending Horner.
The level of delusion is staggering
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
mb2612 wrote:
I just am starting to convince myself tat maybe cycling is on top of it's doping problem, that maybe Sky have just signed some really good riders, and then shit like this happens.
Lame
And as usual the level of delusion is staggering
It doesn't matter how obvious one gets, the fans from that country will always deny that the sky is blue to try to defend a doper.
I mean, we've gotten to the point where we're actually watching a joke. We literally are. Anyone saying Horner would win the Vuelta would be seen as a good joke to make fun of the obviously doped performances of the past two years, yet....it's happening.
It cannot possibly get any more ridiculous than a 42 year old who's shown nothing before and defends dopers like Armstrong, dominating a Grand Tour. It literally cannot. There is no situation anyone can come up with that is more ridiculous than this.
If anyone tried to come up with the most ridiculously over the top, blatantly doped hypothetical scenario possible, this is the scenario they'd come up.....yet some fans still insist on defending Horner.
The level of delusion is staggering
Come on, he had some great results in the past, like winning Langkawi in 2003, stages in Suisse and Romandie, and the GC in Basque Tour and California, not to forget the 9th place in the Tour of '09, his best GT-performance!!
You know exactly what I'm talking about. He's done nothing in GTs other than a 9th place in 2010 because of a a breakaway, otherwise he'd have been 16th
And even that was highly suspicious given his previous performance - or lack thereof.
Delusion, delusion, delusion.
Then he gets caught, and it's 'oh my god who could've guessed'...and nothing is learned. The next time this happens it's more denial and more delusion. Over and over. Nothing ever changes.
Edited by issoisso on 13-09-2013 09:08
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
mb2612 wrote:
I just am starting to convince myself tat maybe cycling is on top of it's doping problem, that maybe Sky have just signed some really good riders, and then shit like this happens.
Lame
And as usual the level of delusion is staggering
It doesn't matter how obvious one gets, the fans from that country will always deny that the sky is blue to try to defend a doper.
I mean, we've gotten to the point where we're actually watching a joke. We literally are. Anyone saying Horner would win the Vuelta would be seen as a good joke to make fun of the obviously doped performances of the past two years, yet....it's happening.
It cannot possibly get any more ridiculous than a 42 year old who's shown nothing before and defends dopers like Armstrong, dominating a Grand Tour. It literally cannot. There is no situation anyone can come up with that is more ridiculous than this.
If anyone tried to come up with the most ridiculously over the top, blatantly doped hypothetical scenario possible, this is the scenario they'd come up.....yet some fans still insist on defending Horner.
The level of delusion is staggering
Come on, he had some great results in the past, like winning Langkawi in 2003, stages in Suisse and Romandie, and the GC in Basque Tour and California, not to forget the 9th place in the Tour of '09, his best GT-performance!!
Yeah and don't forget the stage he won in Tour of Utah a month ago by beating Tom Danielsson in a sprint finish with world class climber Lucas Euser just 37 seconds after him. Edited by lukaas on 13-09-2013 09:12
dienblad wrote:
Well, if Horner has accomplished one thing in this Vuelta, besides becoming even stronger in the 3rd week of a tough GT, is that his way of riding is saring to make me believe Froome is clean.... Froome is younger, riding good for 2 years now (and not suddenly at the age of 67) and showed some weakness in the final week of the Tour. And if my memory isn't damaged too much by too much wine in the past months, I can't remember Froome doing 6,70 in the Tour (lease correct me if I'm wrong)....
I wouldn't get too hung up on the numbers as the Vuelta climbs are generally very short (typically 20 minutes rather than 35-40). The numbers put out by Nibbles et al will also look high on these climbs. There are plenty of other reasons to be doubtful of Horner though...
mb2612 wrote:
I just am starting to convince myself tat maybe cycling is on top of it's doping problem, that maybe Sky have just signed some really good riders, and then shit like this happens.
Lame
And as usual the level of delusion is staggering
It doesn't matter how obvious one gets, the fans from that country will always deny that the sky is blue to try to defend a doper.
I mean, we've gotten to the point where we're actually watching a joke. We literally are. Anyone saying Horner would win the Vuelta would be seen as a good joke to make fun of the obviously doped performances of the past two years, yet....it's happening.
It cannot possibly get any more ridiculous than a 42 year old who's shown nothing before and defends dopers like Armstrong, dominating a Grand Tour. It literally cannot. There is no situation anyone can come up with that is more ridiculous than this.
If anyone tried to come up with the most ridiculously over the top, blatantly doped hypothetical scenario possible, this is the scenario they'd come up.....yet some fans still insist on defending Horner.
The level of delusion is staggering
I want Horner to ride Angliru on a Penny Farthing or maybe a Grifter (spelling? 80's tank of a kids bike) that would be more ridiculous
Today is the only stage where Nibali can get back some time on Horner. Hilly terrain will suit him better. If he can stretch advantage to 1m, than that's his only chance going into Angliru. Otherwise Horner will drop him in Angliru and it's all over.
dienblad wrote:
Well, if Horner has accomplished one thing in this Vuelta, besides becoming even stronger in the 3rd week of a tough GT, is that his way of riding is saring to make me believe Froome is clean.... Froome is younger, riding good for 2 years now (and not suddenly at the age of 67) and showed some weakness in the final week of the Tour. And if my memory isn't damaged too much by too much wine in the past months, I can't remember Froome doing 6,70 in the Tour (lease correct me if I'm wrong)....
No, Froome didn't do 6,7, I reckon he did 6,4 or something in Ax-3-Domaines though.
That being said, if you don't give the duration, that means crap.
So, Horner has apparently done 6,7 (I've read 6,85 too, not sure which one is right) during 16-17 minutes after 5 climbs in the third week of a GT, whereas Froome's biggest achievements in terms of Watts was at Ax where he did 6,4 or 6,5 W/kg during 22-23 minutes, after 8 days of racing and one mountain.
For efforts that last 20 to 60 minutes, and a 70 kg rider, the power loss is about 1 W/minute, which means one given rider would achieve 40 Watts more (average) on a 20 minutes efforts.
Have I written often enough how I don't have any faith in Froome and been logical enough to let people draw conclusions about Horner ?
Still, there's one thing that needs questioning about today's final climb results. Many contenders, including some I tend to believe they're clean, have set excellent times. Maybe a tailwind factor has been underestimated or something like that ?
The logical reasoning here speaks for itself. You might be right about the wind, havent read anything about though?
I was wondering though who are the riders you tend to believe are riding clean ?
I know its not Nibali, Valverde, Rodriguez, Moreno.
Even though Horner is doped, the rest of top 4 are so, I dont think any of the heavy-weights on here are disagreeing with me? I wonder what Horner is on. Might be the same as Froome ? .. I might suspect he got something his body just super-responded to.
EDIT: Because even "on" heavy dope, his performances, especially compared to level, is just way beyond abnormal
Edited by Ybodonk on 13-09-2013 10:45
