Hi,
After my first season playing PCM 2012 I have some sugestions.
Why does Robert Gesink have such a high MO, HILL and REC stat??? I looked for Results and Stats of him all over the internet and couldnt found anything that justifies his amazing MO, HILL and REC stats (one of the best in the game). In the Giro he was third behind Nibali and Wiggins and ahead of guys like Sánchez, Hesjedal, Pozzovivo, Basso and Scarponi. If u compare his achivments and the achivments of the guys behind him, then its a bad joke. I have heard a lot that he hasnt had an opportunity to show what he is capable of but in my opinion isnt right to give him unjustified, imaginary and totally subjective stats and on the other hand changing the Flat Stats of Rodriguez right away after one Stage at the Vuelta. We should try to make stats fair 4 everyone and not oberpower our personal preferred riders.
Gesink has showed plenty that he is one of the top GT riders. Last years Vuelta didn't hurt him much, he was certainly in play on the mountains. The Tour of California saw him blow away the competition on Mt. Baldly. If he didn't have the major injuries over the last two seasons his results should look much better. He will go into the TdF this year again as one of the riders expected to challenge team Sky.
However I could certainly entertain the thought of lowering his hill stat, he has not been very good in the ardennes either of the last two seasons.
Lastly though, I would not send insults at those that build this DB up, and expect to see much appreciation back. This DB gets inputs from many people all over the world and is probably the least biased of any DB there is.
Edited by Kentaurus on 27-02-2013 03:40
There are 21 riders with a higher hill stat than Gesink. Even though he wasn't good in the Ardennes, he more than delivered his skill in for example Emilia and Canada. He was also very much upfront at the first hilly TdF stages of last year. So I don't think that changes are really needed.
By the way, we might just be dealing with a troll here. In the Netherlands, it's quite popular to bash Gesink for whatever goes wrong in his career, so when someone uses his first post here to do this, two minutes after he registered, I get a suspicious feeling about it.
I agree with both guys above me.
The subject Gesink is discussed a few pages earlier, and Alakagom said that the stat makers think that this will finally be a great year for Gesink. Also, he said that his small lack of results are also because of his bad luck, which he had a lot in the past years.
About the hill stat, I think 77 isn't too high. Don't forget that Hill stat isn't only Ardennes, but also some GT stages, some of the other one-day races, like Canada, as Blueprint said. I think 76 HI would really be too low for Gesink
Hi I was one who couldnt understand Gesink stats a few post ago.
Kentaurus wrote:
Gesink has showed plenty that he is one of the top GT riders. Last years Vuelta didn't hurt him much, he was certainly in play on the mountains. The Tour of California saw him blow away the competition on Mt. Baldly. If he didn't have the major injuries over the last two seasons his results should look much better. He will go into the TdF this year again as one of the riders expected to challenge team Sky.
However I could certainly entertain the thought of lowering his hill stat, he has not been very good in the ardennes either of the last two seasons.
Lastly though, I would not send insults at those that build this DB up, and expect to see much appreciation back. This DB gets inputs from many people all over the world and is probably the least biased of any DB there is.
Gesink has showed plenty that he is one of the top GT riders.
Well Im sure Gesink is a good GT contender but I cant see him making a podium this Year. I dont think hi is going to be able to beat Wiggins, and Nibali at the Giro and he will have to beat Hesjedal and Sanchez too, If he goes to the TDF i cant see beating Contador, Froome, Schleck, Valverde or Purito either and at the Vuelta same story with Contador, Valverde, Froome and Rodriguez.
Last years Vuelta didn't hurt him much, he was certainly in play on the mountains.
Well he wasnt actually that great at the Vuelta he was 6 almost a minute behind Moreno, 2 Minutes behind Froome, 11 minutes behind Valverde and Rodriguez and 12 Minutes behind Contador.
At the Hilly stages he was ok but at the Mountain Stages he wasnt good at all and he wasnt in any stage on the podium Also notice how Moreno ho has worst Mo stat than him was better than him in the Mountains and how bad was Gesinks 3 week wich doesnt speak good for his REC Stat.
Spoiler
Hilly Stages:
Stage 6
1. Joaquin RODRIGUEZ OLIVER, Katusha, in 4:35:22
2. Christopher FROOME, Sky, at :5
3. Alejandro VALVERDE BELMONTE, Movistar, at :10
4. Alberto CONTADOR VELASCO, Saxo Bank-Tinkoff Bank, at :19
5. Eros CAPECCHI, Liquigas-Cannondale, at :19
6. Rigoberto URAN URAN, Sky, at :19
7. Rinaldo NOCENTINI, Ag2r La Mondiale, at :25
8. Mauro SANTAMBROGIO, BMC Racing, at :28
9. Nicolas ROCHE, Ag2r La Mondiale, at :28
10. Robert GESINK, Rabobank, at :33
Stage 9
1. Philippe GILBERT, BMC Racing, in 4:45:28
2. Joaquin RODRIGUEZ OLIVER, Katusha, at 0
3. Paolo TIRALONGO, Astana, at :7
4. Tomasz MARCZYNSKI, Vacansoleil-DCM, at :9
5. Daniele BENNATI, RadioShack-Nissan, at :9
6. Alejandro VALVERDE BELMONTE, Movistar, at :9
7. Nacer BOUHANNI, FDJ-BigMat, at :9
8. Gorka VERDUGO MARCOTEGUI, Euskaltel-Euskadi, at :12
9. Gianni MEERSMAN, Lotto-Belisol, at :12
10. Igor ANTON HERNANDEZ, Euskaltel-Euskadi, at :12
11. Rinaldo NOCENTINI, Ag2r La Mondiale, at :12
12. Przemyslaw NIEMIEC, Lampre-ISD, at :12
13. Bauke MOLLEMA, Rabobank, at :12
14. Alberto LOSADA ALGUACIL, Katusha, at :12
15. Lloyd MONDORY, Ag2r La Mondiale, at :12
16. Daniel MORENO FERNANDEZ, Katusha, at :12
17. Rob RUIJGH, Vacansoleil-DCM, at :12
18. Eros CAPECCHI, Liquigas-Cannondale, at :12
19. Andre Fernando S. Martins CARDOSO, Caja Rural, at :12
20. Lars BOOM, Rabobank, at :12
21. Jose Joaquin ROJAS GIL, Movistar, at :12
22. Alberto CONTADOR VELASCO, Saxo Bank-Tinkoff Bank, at :12
23. Bart DE CLERCQ, Lotto-Belisol, at :12
24. Kevin DE WEERT, Omega Pharma-Quick Step, at :12
25. Benat INTXAUSTI ELORRIAGA, Movistar, at :12
26. Maxime MONFORT, RadioShack-Nissan, at :12
27. Matti BRESCHEL, Rabobank, at :12
28. Andrew TALANSKY, Garmin-Sharp, at :12
29. Steve MORABITO, BMC Racing, at :12
30. Robert GESINK, Rabobank, at :12
Stage 12
1. Joaquin RODRIGUEZ OLIVER, Katusha, in 4:24:32
2. Alberto CONTADOR VELASCO, Saxo Bank-TInkoff Bank, at :8
3. Alejandro VALVERDE BELMONTE, Movistar, at :13
4. Robert GESINK, Rabobank, at :20
Stage 17
1. Alberto CONTADOR VELASCO, Saxo Bank-Tinkoff Bank, in 4:29:20
2. Alejandro VALVERDE BELMONTE, Movistar, at :6
3. Sergio Luis HENAO MONTOYA, Sky, at :6
4. Gorka VERDUGO MARCOTEGUI, Euskaltel-Euskadi, at :6
5. Rinaldo NOCENTINI, Ag2r La Mondiale, at :19
6. Jan BAKELANTS, RadioShack-Nissan, at :55
7. Benat INTXAUSTI ELORRIAGA, Movistar, at 1:13
8. Alexandre GENIEZ, Argos-Shimano, at 1:40
9. Paolo TIRALONGO, Astana, at 2:13
10. Joaquin RODRIGUEZ OLIVER, Katusha, at 2:38
11. Jesus HERNANDEZ BLAZQUEZ, Saxo Bank-Tinkoff Bank, at 2:38
12. Nairo Alexander QUINTANA ROJAS, Movistar, at
13. Arnold JEANNESSON, FDJ-BigMat, at 3:03
14. Damiano CUNEGO, Lampre-ISD, at 3:18
15. Laurens TEN DAM, Rabobank, at 4:05
16. Mikel LANDA MEANA, Euskaltel-Euskadi, at 4:17
17. Przemyslaw NIEMIEC, Lampre-ISD, at 4:48
18. Andrew TALANSKY, Garmin-Sharp, at 4:48
19. Gianni MEERSMAN, Lotto-Belisol, at 4:48
20. Robert GESINK, Rabobank, at 4:48
Stage 19
1. Philippe GILBERT, BMC Racing, in 4:56:25
2. Alejandro VALVERDE BELMONTE, Movistar, at 0
3. Daniel MORENO FERNANDEZ, Katusha, at 0
4. Joaquin RODRIGUEZ OLIVER, Katusha, at 0
5. Gianni MEERSMAN, Lotto-Belisol, at :3
6. Bauke MOLLEMA, Rabobank, at :3
7. Ben SWIFT, Sky, at :3
8. Jan BAKELANTS, RadioShack-Nissan, at :3
9. Rinaldo NOCENTINI, Ag2r La Mondiale, at :3
10. Sergio Luis HENAO MONTOYA, Sky, at :3
11. Alberto CONTADOR VELASCO, Saxo Bank-Tinkoff Bank, at :3
12. Gorka VERDUGO MARCOTEGUI, Euskaltel-Euskadi, at :3
13. Robert GESINK, Rabobank, at :3
Mountain Stages:
Stage 3
1. Alejandro VALVERDE BELMONTE, Movistar, in 3:49:37
2. Joaquin RODRIGUEZ OLIVER, Katusha, at 0
3. Christopher FROOME, Sky, at 0
4. Alberto CONTADOR VELASCO, Saxo Bank-Tinkoff Bank, at 0
5. Daniel MORENO FERNANDEZ, Katusha, at :6
6. Bauke MOLLEMA, Rabobank, at :6
7. Eros CAPECCHI, Liquigas-Cannondale, at :6
8. Benat INTXAUSTI ELORRIAGA, Movistar, at :6
9. Andrew TALANSKY, Garmin-Sharp, at :6
10. Robert GESINK, Rabobank, at :6
Stage 4 (Peloton didnt chase the breakaway)
1. Simon CLARKE, Orica-GreenEdge, in 4:30:26
2. Tony MARTIN, Omega Pharma-Quick Step, at :2
3. Assan BAZAYEV, Astana, at :22
4. Marcos GARCIA, Caja Rural, at :55
5. Nicolas ROCHE, Ag2r La Mondiale, at :55
6. Linus GERDEMANN, RadioShack-Nissan, at :57
7. Laurens TEN DAM, Rabobank, at :57
8. Andrey ZEITS, Astana, at 1:01
9. Bauke MOLLEMA, Rabobank, at 1:04
10. Jan BAKELANTS, RadioShack-Nissan, at 1:04
11. Przemyslaw NIEMIEC, Lampre-ISD, at 1:04
12. Tomasz MARCZYNSKI, Vacansoleil-DCM, at 1:04
13. Steve MORABITO, BMC Racing, at 1:04
14. Andre Fernando S. Martins CARDOSO, Caja Rural, at 1:04
15. Christopher FROOME, Sky, at 1:04
16. Winner ANACONA GOMEZ, Lampre-ISD, at 1:04
17. Maxime MONFORT, RadioShack-Nissan, at 1:04
18. Joaquin RODRIGUEZ OLIVER, Katusha, at 1:04
19. Sergio Luis HENAO MONTOYA, Sky, at 1:04
20. Kevin SEELDRAEYERS, Astana, at 1:04
21. Alberto CONTADOR VELASCO, Saxo Bank-Tinkoff Bank, at 1:04
22. Robert GESINK, Rabobank, at 1:04
Stage 8
1. Alejandro VALVERDE BELMONTE, Movistar, in 4:06:39
2. Joaquin RODRIGUEZ OLIVER, Katusha, at 0
3. Alberto CONTADOR VELASCO, Saxo Bank-Tinkoff Bank, at 0
4. Christopher FROOME, Sky, at :15
5. Daniel MORENO FERNANDEZ, Katusha, at :23
6. Benat INTXAUSTI ELORRIAGA, Movistar, at :33
7. Igor ANTON HERNANDEZ, Euskaltel-Euskadi, at :33
8. Winner ANACONA GOMEZ, Lampre-ISD, at :39
9. Robert GESINK, Rabobank, at :39
Stage 14
1. Joaquin RODRIGUEZ OLIVER, Katusha, in 4:10:28
2. Alberto CONTADOR VELASCO, Saxo Bank-Tinkoff Bank, at :5
3. Alejandro VALVERDE BELMONTE, Movistar, at :13
4. Daniel MORENO FERNANDEZ, Katusha, at :35
5. Christopher FROOME, Sky, at :38
6. Andrew TALANSKY, Garmin-Sharp, at :44
7. Igor ANTON HERNANDEZ, Euskaltel-Euskadi, at :56
8. Laurens TEN DAM, Rabobank, at 1:04
9. Tomasz MARCZYNSKI, Vacansoleil-DCM, at 1:13
10. Nicolas ROCHE, Ag2r La Mondiale, at 1:17
11. Gorka VERDUGO MARCOTEGUI, Euskaltel-Euskadi, at 1:17
12. Przemyslaw NIEMIEC, Lampre-ISD, at 1:26
13. Rafal MAJKA, Saxo Bank-Tinkoff Bank, at 1:51
14. Robert GESINK, Rabobank, at 1:56
Stage 15 ( Peloton didnt chase breakaway)
1. Antonio PIEDRA PEREZ, Caja Rural, in 5:01:23
2. Ruben PEREZ MORENO, Euskaltel-Euskadi, at 2:02
3. Lloyd MONDORY, Ag2r La Mondiale, at 2:02
4. David DE LA FUENTE RASILLA, Caja Rural, at 2:02
5. Pablo LASTRAS GARCIA, Movistar, at 2:07
6. Simon GESCHKE, Argos-Shimano, at 2:12
7. Kevin SEELDRAEYERS, Astana, at 2:25
8. Andrey KASHECHKIN, Astana, at 3:35
9. Vicente REYNES MIMO, Lotto-Belisol, at 3:49
10. Sergey LAGUTIN, Vacansoleil-DCM, at 6:45
11. Alejandro VALVERDE BELMONTE, Movistar, at 9:25
12. Joaquin RODRIGUEZ OLIVER, Katusha, at 9:25
13. Alberto CONTADOR VELASCO, Saxo Bank-Tinkoff Bank, at 9:25
14. Nairo Alexander QUINTANA ROJAS, Movistar, at 9:38
15. Igor ANTON HERNANDEZ, Euskaltel-Euskadi, at 9:48
16. Tomasz MARCZYNSKI, Vacansoleil-DCM, at 10:00
17. Robert GESINK, Rabobank, at 10:00
Stage 20
1. Denis MENCHOV, Katusha, in 4:48:48
2. Richie PORTE, Sky, at :17
3. Kevin DE WEERT, Omega Pharma-Quick Step, at :42
4. Fredrik Carl Wilhelm KESSIAKOFF, Astana, at 1:16
5. Romain SICARD, Euskaltel-Euskadi, at 1:39
6. Eros CAPECCHI, Liquigas-Cannondale, at 2:30
7. Maxime BOUET, Ag2r La Mondiale, at 2:39
8. Simon GESCHKE, Argos-Shimano, at 3:14
9. Joaquin RODRIGUEZ OLIVER, Katusha, at 3:31
10. Alejandro VALVERDE BELMONTE, Movistar, at 3:56
11. Tiago MACHADO, RadioShack-Nissan, at 4:08
12. Alberto CONTADOR VELASCO, Saxo Bank-Tinkoff Bank, at 4:15
13. Daniel MORENO FERNANDEZ, Katusha, at 4:15
14. Igor ANTON HERNANDEZ, Euskaltel-Euskadi, at 4:24
15. Andrew TALANSKY, Garmin-Sharp, at 4:34
16. David DE LA FUENTE RASILLA, Caja Rural, at 4:37
17. Thomas PETERSON, Garmin-Sharp, at 4:38
18. Robert GESINK, Rabobank, at 4:38
The Tour of California saw him blow away the competition on Mt. Baldly.
Well he won that Stage with the same Time as Darwin Atapuma and I dont see that Atapuma has the same Stats as him.
Stage 7 Results
1. Robert GESINK, Rabobank at 3:37:08
2. Darwin ATAPUMA HURTADO, Colombia-Coldeportes at s.t.
3. Fabio Andres DUARTE AREVALO, Colombia-Coldeportes at :14
4. Joe DOMBROSKI, Bontrager-Livestrong at :18
5. Thomas DANIELSON, Garmin-Barracuda at :26
6. Christopher HORNER, RadioShack-Nissan at :38
7. Wilco KELDERMAN, Rabobank at 1:04
8. Tiago MACHADO, RadioShack-Nissan at 1:06
9. Levi LEIPHEIMER, Omega Pharma-Quick Step at 1:08
10. Tejay VAN GARDEREN, BMC Racing at 1:22
He will go into the TdF this year again as one of the riders expected to challenge team Sky.
After doing Giro I dont think he is going to do well at the TDF. Contador demonstrated u cant do Giro and Tour at a high level.
Blueprint wrote:
There are 21 riders with a higher hill stat than Gesink. Even though he wasn't good in the Ardennes, he more than delivered his skill in for example Emilia and Canada. He was also very much upfront at the first hilly TdF stages of last year. So I don't think that changes are really needed.
By the way, we might just be dealing with a troll here. In the Netherlands, it's quite popular to bash Gesink for whatever goes wrong in his career, so when someone uses his first post here to do this, two minutes after he registered, I get a suspicious feeling about it.
Even though he wasn't good in the Ardennes, he more than delivered his skill in for example Emilia and Canada.
That was 2010 and 2011 and I dont see Carlos Betancur Giro dell´Emilia 2011 winner or Nairo Quintana Giro dell´Emilia 2012 winner or Lars Petter Nordhaug Grand Prix Cycliste de Montreal 2012 winner with the same stats as him. Just compares Daniel Moreno and Robert Gesink 2011, 2012 and Current CQ Ranking and Mountain CQ Subranking.
Im not a Gesink hater and Im not trying to anoy anyone just I understad the people who cant understand Gesinks stats despite his lack of results that back up his stats. But as Alakagom said we will have to wait until the Giro and see.
Edited by fickman on 27-02-2013 17:35
@Fickman But the thing is, we know that Gesink can do it. He just has a lot of bad luck. He proved in the TdF of a few years ago(one of the few GTs where he had some luck/no crashes) that he's just a great stage-racer. We will await the Giro and TdF of this year. Nobody is certain of what he can do when he doesn't, well... crash(Don't mention Vuelta 2012, it wasn't his main focus of last year)
Just accept the stats for now, and start complaining again if he disappoints again in both Giro 2013 and TdF 2013, if a crash doesn't help him with that
And his stats aren't suggesting that beating Froome, Rodriguez, Wiggins, Contador, Sanchez, Nibali etc. is a piece of cake for him Edited by Jesleyh on 27-02-2013 17:47
One question thats been bugging me recently,
Why does Edmonson (SKY) have such high MO and HL stats?
He certainly has some talent, but so far lacks the results to back up those stats, especially when compared to some other riders in the DB.
Also i hope to do a massive review of the UK Conti riders at some point. One or two things need addressing.
TheManxMissile wrote:
One question thats been bugging me recently,
Why does Edmonson (SKY) have such high MO and HL stats?
Finished together with Uran, Machado, Klöden and Menchov on Malhao, and KoM in last year's ToB iirc.
If we use that logic then Marc De Maar should have a lot higher stats, as he beat Wiggins and those above...
70's just seem high for him, 67-68 would be fine. Or is it that he is at Sky?
If you consider +3 marginal gains...
I actually didn't want to say these results justify the stats, but these are the most stand-out ones you can derive them from.
It might be a bit high indeed, but let him prove himself some more first, maybe he'll live up to it.
cio93 wrote:
Wackermann is definitely close to what's understandable.
I haven't started a career where he has less than 82 HI potential yet.
The potential is because by default the 2013 DB gives him a potential 7, which will normally give him 82-83 in his main stat (hill). With a bit of luck that moves up to 84-85 (if he get's an 8 in hill) or could slide down to an 80-81 (if he gets unlucky and has a 6 in hill).
I know, I probably should've elaborated a bit more.
I fail to see why his only result, an indeed quite good 5th in Tre Valli Varesine, justifies potential 7 right away.
Though I must admit I did not follow him in the youth ranks or have any idea about other significant performances that are not represented in results.
cio93 wrote:
I know, I probably should've elaborated a bit more.
I fail to see why his only result, an indeed quite good 5th in Tre Valli Varesine, justifies potential 7 right away.
Though I must admit I did not follow him in the youth ranks or have any idea about other significant performances that are not represented in results.
He destroyed the opposition in the U23 category, afaik. Potential 7 isn't necessarily too much for him, imo.
He destroyed the opposition in the U23 category, afaik. Potential 7 isn't necessarily too much for him, imo.
And bringing it back round, Edmonson did not do that.
Plus who doesn't play with Random Potential!
Random potential isn't really random, it will cause some randomness but riders still stay near their default. eg. a rider with potential 7 will still probably be a 6,7, or 8. While a rider with potential 2, will be a 1,2, or 3.
I'm not sure how far up or down a rider can slide, but it's rarely off more than 1 value.
EDIT: After doing some quick checking, looks like the values can go +-2.
Edited by Kentaurus on 27-02-2013 20:25
![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
