You got a point Bushwackers, it's probably me trying too be extra vigilant on Sky riders. However to also point out Pate was not selected for Tour last year as he wasn't good enough to get into that Sky team. He's still a great domestique of course.
Edited by Alakagom on 12-02-2013 22:51
Not sure if this is mentioned before, but one of the things I always change in my own database, is the cyclocross guys. The fulltime ones I mean, not Boom and Stybar, as their stats are pretty accurate. The issue here is that they have low stats (aside from the downhill), while I think the actual problem is low fitness, due to them not doing much throughout the road race season.
However, I feel some of them should have higher stats because IF they would focus more on road races (which is the only option PCM has), they would have better results. There are many examples of both past and present where cyclists can achieve results both in cyclocross and road cycling. Or mountainbiking and road riding, if you want to expand.
I'll give a few examples of stats I tend to change based on RL examples.
Kevin Pauwels has shown himself to be a potentialy good sprinter. He won some mass sprints in smaller stage races (Fleche du Sud, Tour of Serbia, and a few others I can remember). He also was second in the uphill sprint in Tour of Belgium (I think) this year. I guess you can also compare him to Stybar's stats, Rough estimate is that Pauwels won 80% of the sprints he and Stybar were involved in. Anyway, what I usualy do is put his sprint on 70, acc on 72 and hill on 68.
Sven Nys has shown some things on the road as well in the past. I remember him surviving Paris-Roubaix and Ronde van Vlaanderen until the final a few times. I tend to put his flat and cobbles on 70.
Sven Vanthourenhout also done some road racing, I think he got 1 or 2 podium on the Belgian NC road race in sprints. So also I put his sprint and acc in the high 60's
Niels Albert, I think he also won some smaller road races, but I can't really pinpoint where his strenghts are, probably just flat, maybe TT as well.
There will probably be foreign riders with the same story. Anyway, my point is that these guys have the abilities to do something on road races, but they don't IRL due to low fitness. However, when playing PCM, they have too weak stats to do anything useful, even with good fitness. I'm not saying they should become the next Lars Boom, but I think a few stats have to be raised
Not sure if this is mentioned before, but one of the things I always change in my own database, is the cyclocross guys. The fulltime ones I mean, not Boom and Stybar, as their stats are pretty accurate. The issue here is that they have low stats (aside from the downhill), while I think the actual problem is low fitness, due to them not doing much throughout the road race season.
However, I feel some of them should have higher stats because IF they would focus more on road races (which is the only option PCM has), they would have better results. There are many examples of both past and present where cyclists can achieve results both in cyclocross and road cycling. Or mountainbiking and road riding, if you want to expand.
I'll give a few examples of stats I tend to change based on RL examples.
Kevin Pauwels has shown himself to be a potentialy good sprinter. He won some mass sprints in smaller stage races (Fleche du Sud, Tour of Serbia, and a few others I can remember). He also was second in the uphill sprint in Tour of Belgium (I think) this year. I guess you can also compare him to Stybar's stats, Rough estimate is that Pauwels won 80% of the sprints he and Stybar were involved in. Anyway, what I usualy do is put his sprint on 70, acc on 72 and hill on 68.
Sven Nys has shown some things on the road as well in the past. I remember him surviving Paris-Roubaix and Ronde van Vlaanderen until the final a few times. I tend to put his flat and cobbles on 70.
Sven Vanthourenhout also done some road racing, I think he got 1 or 2 podium on the Belgian NC road race in sprints. So also I put his sprint and acc in the high 60's
Niels Albert, I think he also won some smaller road races, but I can't really pinpoint where his strenghts are, probably just flat, maybe TT as well.
There will probably be foreign riders with the same story. Anyway, my point is that these guys have the abilities to do something on road races, but they don't IRL due to low fitness. However, when playing PCM, they have too weak stats to do anything useful, even with good fitness. I'm not saying they should become the next Lars Boom, but I think a few stats have to be raised
I disagree. They have low stats because they don't get results. Whether this is fitness related or not is not an issue. They aren't riding road full time, so placing the stats as if they were is not a fair representation of what they do on road IRL.
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The problem is, a guy like Albert HAS results on the road, and he did some pretty impressive stuff in once of those france stage races in the mountains. And in the ardennes stage of the Tour of Belgium a couple of times.
Perhaps for realism it would be best to up the potential for the cross-riders? Then they can develop into good road riders, but it won't make weird results in the first season or two?
I think I was still careful with my numbers, taking out some of the best results under the "don't look at 1 race rule". Then again, there's only a few races they actually participate in. Looking at for instance Pauwels' top results, one could give him 72-73 SPR/ACC and 71-72 Hill.
Comparing stats to Stybar or Boom might be an option though, with Pauwels being the better sprinter, Nys just below Stybar and Albert way below, lower then Boom even. It isn't totally fair, but well, since there's no cyclocross on PCM, the realistic thing would be that these guys do race on the road and are worth some stat improvements. Based on the results, there guys deserve an update. Whether or not they have potential to improve, that's just guessing.
Ollfardh wrote:
I think I was still careful with my numbers, taking out some of the best results under the "don't look at 1 race rule". Then again, there's only a few races they actually participate in. Looking at for instance Pauwels' top results, one could give him 72-73 SPR/ACC and 71-72 Hill.
Comparing stats to Stybar or Boom might be an option though, with Pauwels being the better sprinter, Nys just below Stybar and Albert way below, lower then Boom even. It isn't totally fair, but well, since there's no cyclocross on PCM, the realistic thing would be that these guys do race on the road and are worth some stat improvements. Based on the results, there guys deserve an update. Whether or not they have potential to improve, that's just guessing.
No, I don't think that it's good. Boom and Stybar have the same sprint stat(68) anyway. They shouldn't get high sprint stat if they haven't been on the road much. I mean, Nys did things on the road, and the things he has done, aren't really convincing to give him a much better sprint stat as Boom.
+ Van de Haar should've been quite good too then, I heard he's one of the best cyclo-cross sprinters, and with your logic, he should have like 73 sprint... Edited by Jesleyh on 13-02-2013 18:21
Ollfardh wrote:
I think I was still careful with my numbers, taking out some of the best results under the "don't look at 1 race rule". Then again, there's only a few races they actually participate in. Looking at for instance Pauwels' top results, one could give him 72-73 SPR/ACC and 71-72 Hill.
Comparing stats to Stybar or Boom might be an option though, with Pauwels being the better sprinter, Nys just below Stybar and Albert way below, lower then Boom even. It isn't totally fair, but well, since there's no cyclocross on PCM, the realistic thing would be that these guys do race on the road and are worth some stat improvements. Based on the results, there guys deserve an update. Whether or not they have potential to improve, that's just guessing.
Jes - Van der Haar does deserve a 71 Spr imo. But I don't know him well enough to cover other stats
But my point was that you also said that Stybar > Nys >>>>>Boom>Albert.
Boom & Stybar got the same sprint stat
My other point was that converting cyclocross stats to PCM isn't a good idea, it's about what they can do on the road
Hmm, indeed a bit odd, I'd say Stybar is a lot faster then Boom. But anyway, whatever individual differences there might be, my point was that most cyclocross guys deserve a boost. How much exactly is a bit trickier of course.
And well, aside from the few cycling results, I'd say that comparing the cyclocross sprints isn't a bad work method. It's not that different from road sprints (excluding mass sprint ofc). There's way more examples as well to find a good average.
Filippo Fortin should have a FL and SP of around 73-74. Christian Delle Stele should have a FL and SP of around 70, and Andrea Pasqualon should have a HIL of 70-72 and MO of around 67-68..
Hi everybody. I think we have to take special attention in the 'small' races this year, because with the WT points, the phylosophy of the riders are different now, all of them will fight in every race (as you can see in TDU Gilbert and Gerras fighting for be in the breakaway for de bonus time, or last two stages of oman), so the results of theese kind of race should be take in care. Thats why I think TJ Slaughter and Javi Moreno should have increased de HILL item.
I am a Spanish fan, I follow cycling since I was a chlid, so I´ll propose some changes about Spanish riders.
Alejandro Valverde: He have won 2 LBL, 1 FV, 2 silver and 2 bronze medal at WC and a Tour 1 stage in 08 in Plumelec. Last year he ariives at April so tired, but at the beginning of the season (after being 2 yeas stopped) he win in Old Willunga after catching the top of the race and after that a very thought sprint vs gerrans, and in the Vuelta, he arrives after a thought TDF with 5 fall downs, and he finish 2 place (with a silly fall down) with 2 stages agaist Contador, Purito Rodriguez and Froome (the only one who rided TDF), and he was with Purito in the walls (the best in them). On the WC, he wait for Freire, and a while later he pursuit Gilbert on the wall (he take less time to climb that Gilbert) That´s why I think he should has the same HILL than them, at least 72 at sprint (he decided to fight last stage in La Vuelta and he finish 6 in the massive sprint, and Gilbert 73), and more Fighting item (he was fighting all the TDF untill finde the win, and he fight for win every race he start.
Luis León Sanchez: After last TDF, I think he should has better TT stats (he finish 3 in last TT, VERY bad luck at OOGG, 79 or 78 in TT), and I think he should have 70 on sprint (he is not better than Valverde here).
Dani Moreno: He win in Sierra nevada (37 kms of mountain) in 2011 Vuelta (against, cobo, menchov, sastre... wiggins and froome), after work for Purito. And this year he have done an excellet job in the Vuelta for him, so I think he might be up on MO.
S.Sanchez: His 1st main target of the 2012 season was Tour of Pais Vasco. He won the race after winning 3 stages of 6, 2 of them with hills agaist Purito and a ITT agaist Tony Martin. Although it wasn´t a flat TT, I think he should have 74 or 75 in TT (at OOGG 2008 he finish 7), and 80 in hills.
Javier Aramendia: Last Vuelta he was always in every breakaway fighting in every place for a win FL, HILL and MO. At least he should have un Fighting 80.
Antonio Piedra: He won after a Breakaway in Los Lagos, one of the most difficult Mountain in Spain. He should have 74 at least.
Sylvain Chavanel: After last 2 years in Cobble races (2 in 2011 de Ronde) he should have 80 at COB.
F.Cancellara: 81 in tt and Wiggins 83??? 3 times WC and 1 gold medal in OOGG?? He had his worst year with 2 fall down in the most importat moment (at de Ronde and in OOGG). I think he is better than Wiggins but this year he have been the best (and the one of the TT specialist that hasn´t got accidents) so I accept they have the same stats (82 wiggins, cancellara and martin). And 82 ath fighting too (he is always attacking, although he have spoilers behind him as gerrans in MSR.
Peter Sagan: He won the PRL od Tour of Switzerland agaist Cancellara and other good riders, so I think he should have better stats.
Nairo Quintana: At least, he should have better MO than Gesink. He won the Tour de l´Avenir with 2 stages with only 20 years (agaist riders of 23). His 1st european season, he won vuelta a Murcia, Route du Sud (against Thomas Voecker in a very high mountain main stage) and Stage 6 at Dauphine against THE BEST SKY pursuiting him in Joux Plane and in the downhill, and the Giro de Emillia. Even that, in La Vuelta he was untill last km helping Valverde to win the race in mountain stages. I think he will be finish next Giro in top 5 or better, and he won the TDF in 4 o 5 years. So if you put Gesink with 79 in mountain, you should do the same with him, and increasig his downhill stats.
Alberto Contador: Please, a 7 times (5 in the books, but 7 in my eyes) winner of a GT, who is attacking in EVERY race he start (today 30 kms to finish in a continental race, tour Oman), worthy a 99 on fighting. He won the last Vuelta attacking every day to Purito... and finally, he attacks one day 80 kms to finish and won the race this day. Last time I see that was Pereiro in TDF 2006, and I don´t remember nothing like that untill Indurain in TDF 91. Fortunattely, this year we have seen Top riders attacking far away to finish (except wiggins). De Gent 82 in figtinhg too
Sorry if it´s too long, but I love cycling, and PCM too, and I want to have the most real DB, so that´s why I wrote it. Thank you for your effor
P.D: I also change the age of decline. As we have seen, each year the cyclist stay in excellet conditions untill a higher age (Leipheimer, Horner are a good examples). Now Samuel, Purito and Valverde have more than 32 years (At this age, more of the riders of the game start to decline) and they are in the best moment of their careers.
Edited by raulvasa_9 on 16-02-2013 13:22
Read through all of that, do agree with the TT part, that I wouldn't put Wiggins higher than Cancellara, equal is okay. Contador could have a higher value at fighter, he does attack a lot, especially for a GT rider. Otherwise I'm not that worried about what riders did in 2011 or prior (unless they were hurt for most of 2012 and that is the most recent info we have on them).
As for the last part though, I certainly would like to see age of decline become a standard and set at 34. We can't always predict when a rider will decline, but certainly Levi isn't as good as he used to be, Evans declined some last season (made fairly apparent by Van Garderen riding better for BMC).
raulvasa_9 wrote:
Hi everybody. I think we have to take special attention in the 'small' races this year, because with the WT points, the phylosophy of the riders are different now, all of them will fight in every race (as you can see in TDU Gilbert and Gerras fighting for be in the breakaway for de bonus time, or last two stages of oman), so the results of theese kind of race should be take in care. Thats why I think TJ Slaughter and Javi Moreno should have increased de HILL item.
I am a Spanish fan, I follow cycling since I was a chlid, so I´ll propose some changes about Spanish riders.
Alejandro Valverde: He have won 2 LBL, 1 FV, 2 silver and 2 bronze medal at WC and a Tour 1 stage in 08 in Plumelec. Last year he ariives at April so tired, but at the beginning of the season (after being 2 yeas stopped) he win in Old Willunga after catching the top of the race and after that a very thought sprint vs gerrans, and in the Vuelta, he arrives after a thought TDF with 5 fall downs, and he finish 2 place (with a silly fall down) with 2 stages agaist Contador, Purito Rodriguez and Froome (the only one who rided TDF), and he was with Purito in the walls (the best in them). On the WC, he wait for Freire, and a while later he pursuit Gilbert on the wall (he take less time to climb that Gilbert) That´s why I think he should have the same HILL than them, at least 72 at sprint (he decided to fight last stage in La Vuelta and he finish 6 in the massive sprint, and Gilbert 73), and more Fighting item (he was fighting all the TDF untill finde the win, and he fight for win every race he start.
Luis León Sanchez: After last TDF, I think he should have better TT stats (he finish 3 in last TT, VERY bad luck at OOGG, 79 or 78 in TT), and I think he should have 70 on sprint (he is not better than Valverde here).
Dani Moreno: He win in Sierra nevada (37 kms of mountain) in 2011 Vuelta (against, cobo, menchov, sastre... wiggins and froome), after work for Purito. And this year he have done an excellet job in the Vuelta for him, so I think he might be up on MO.
S.Sanchez: His 1st main target of the 2012 season was Tour of Pais Vasco. He won the race after winning 3 stages of 6, 2 of them with hills agaist Purito and a ITT agaist Tony Martin. Although it wasn´t a flat TT, I think he should have 74 or 75 in TT (at OOGG 2008 he finish 7), and 80 in hills.
Javier Aramendia: Last Vuelta he was always in every breakaway fighting in every place for a win FL, HILL and MO. At least he should have un Fighting 80.
Antonio Piedra: He won after a Breakaway in Los Lagos, one of the most difficult Mountain in Spain. He should have 74 at least.
Sylvain Chavanel: After last 2 years in Cobble races (2 in 2011 de Ronde) he should have 80 at COB.
F.Cancellara: 81 in tt and Wiggins 83??? 3 times WC and 1 gold medal in OOGG?? He had his worst year with 2 fall down in the most importat moment (at de Ronde and in OOGG). I think he is better than Wiggins but this year he have been the best (and the one of the TT specialist that hasn´t got accidents) so I accept they have the same stats (82 wiggins, cancellara and martin). And 82 ath fighting too (he is always attacking, although he have spoilers behind him as gerrans in MLS.
Peter Sagan: He won the PRL od Tour of Switzerland agaist Cancellara and other good riders, so I think he should have better stats.
Nairo Quintana: At least, he should have better MO than Gesink. He won the Tour de l´Avenir with 2 stages with only 20 years (agaist riders of 23). His 1st european season, he won vuelta a Murcia, Route du Sud (against Thomas Voecker in a very high mountain main stage) and Stage 6 at Dauphine against THE BEST SKY pursuiting him in Joux Plane and in the downhill, and the Giro de Emillia. Even that, in La Vuelta he was untill last km helping Valverde to win the race in mountain stages. I think he will be finish next Giro in top 5 or better, and he won the TDF in 4 o 5 years. So if you put Gesink with 79 in mountain, you should do the same with him, and increasig his downhill stats.
Alberto Contador: Please, a 7 times (5 in the books, but 7 in my eyes) winner of a GT, who is attacking in EVERY race he start (today 30 kms to finish in a continental race, tour Oman), worthy a 99 on fighting. He won the last Vuelta attacking every day to Purito... and finally, he attacks one day 80 kms to finish and won the race this day. Last time I see that was Pereiro in TDF 2006, and I don´t remember nothing like that untill Indurain in TDF 91. Fortunattely, this year we have seen Top riders attacking far away to finish (except wiggins). De Gent 82 in figtinhg too
Sorry if it´s too long, but I love cycling, and PCM too, and I want to have the most real DB, so that´s why I wrote it. Thank you for your effor
P.D: I also change the age of decline. As we have seen, each year the cyclist stay in excellet conditions untill a higher age (Leipheimer, Horner are a good examples). Now Samuel, Purito and Valverde have more than 32 years (At this age, more of the riders of the game start to decline) and they are in the best moment of their careers.
Nice suggestions, well done
Now, Valverde has or will have 69 in SPR. With such stat he can easily make a Top 10 in flat stage on last day in a GT. We don't want to make him sprint in every bunch sprint possible early on GT so that's why 69 should be fair.
Peter Sagan won the prologue in Suiise, however it was a hilly one with descent as well When it comes to flat prologues, he's not that good, hence 75 seems about fair, considering he can still do very well in hillier porlogues with high hilly and descent stats.
Gesink finished 6th overall in Vuelta, Quintanta did not. I know he did amazing work for Valverde though, and was brilliant overall but we'll see this year what's he got if he leads a GT. 77/78 seems fair enough at the beginning of 2013, that might surely increase later on the season.
Others are deletable as well but I agree on few particular riders there, the fighter skills and TT's, and again good suggestions. If you want, you could do similar for some smaller Spanish teams in Conti level Edited by Alakagom on 16-02-2013 10:09
