solano wrote:
Sorry to bring this back to doping, but I've just read though the last few pages and am intrigued by the science.
I'm not a scientist and don't understand the chemistry that's discussed. I am intrigued by the wattage figures.
How are they calculated? I know that these days people have power cranks that give figures, but how do we know the wattage from the past? How do we know what the acceptable power outputs are?
I'm sorry if these seem like stupid questions, but they are genuine questions. I'm not trying to challenge anyone's positions on doping, just trying to understand some of the facts.
It's tough, you can't find a number which decrees that everyone above that number is doping, and everyone below is clean. That said, this post, and the three linked at the front have quite a nice analysis, written around the 2010 tour.: https://www.sports...ction.html
Thanks for the links. I'm starting to see how the data works.
CrueTrue wrote:
According to L'Equipe, Festina might co-sponsor Euskaltel in 2013.
Festina! Well, it's a company I will always associate with professional cycling, so why not? It'll sound a bit weird, but that's unavoidable now that Euskaltel and the Fundación Euskadi are parting their ways.
Wilier wrote:
Jonas Ahlstrand and Warren Barguil will be riding as trainees for Argos - Shimano, starting the 1st of August.
Looking forward to see Ahlstrand on ProfConti level. Should have a hard battle with Degenkolb and Kittel, though.
kumazan wrote:
CrueTrue wrote:
According to L'Equipe, Festina might co-sponsor Euskaltel in 2013.
Festina! Well, it's a company I will always associate with professional cycling, so why not? It'll sound a bit weird, but that's unavoidable now that Euskaltel and the Fundación Euskadi are parting their ways.
Me too, but directly after that, I associate it with doping. But well...
CrueTrue wrote:
According to L'Equipe, Festina might co-sponsor Euskaltel in 2013.
Festina! Well, it's a company I will always associate with professional cycling, so why not? It'll sound a bit weird, but that's unavoidable now that Euskaltel and the Fundación Euskadi are parting their ways.
Me too, but directly after that, I associate it with doping. But well...
Heh - I often see "Würth" on my way to work. "Doping" is my only thought Same goes for Festina.
Festina back in sponsoring a team is YEAH! for me. My fav team of all time, although the years of Virenque, Zülle, Dufaux, Brochard, Herve, Moreau, Rous, Casero and Beloki are well and safely over. I miss those days though.
solano wrote:
Sorry to bring this back to doping, but I've just read though the last few pages and am intrigued by the science.
I'm not a scientist and don't understand the chemistry that's discussed. I am intrigued by the wattage figures.
How are they calculated? I know that these days people have power cranks that give figures, but how do we know the wattage from the past? How do we know what the acceptable power outputs are?
I'm sorry if these seem like stupid questions, but they are genuine questions. I'm not trying to challenge anyone's positions on doping, just trying to understand some of the facts.
I think I've written this here and there already, but let's do it again...
Three basic strength apply to a climbing cyclist : gravity, air resistance, and mechanical resistance.
Gravity depends from the slope gradient, the weight of the rider and his bike, etc.
Air resistance is relatively low, especially at smaller speeds, like those of cyclists climbing mountains. It depends on aerodynamic, air density, wind, temperature, etc.
Mechanical resistance is anything that makes a difference between the strength the rider sends through his feet and what is applied on the road : shoes, crankset, frame, chain, cassette, wheels rigidity, road quality, etc.
As written, the faster you go, the more the air resistance increases. It's proportional to the square of the speed. At climbing skills it's almost neglectable.
Mechanical resistance is proportional to speed. The global output has improved through years, and that's taken into account for calculations.
Riders with different weights will develop different powers, so a precise figure cannot be defined for what's acceptable or not. That's why all riders are assumed to weight 70 kg and bikes (and other equipments) : 8 kg. That's the only way to make comparisons between riders.
To calculate power outputs, you need to know the following : climbing times, altitude difference, slope length, temperature, road quality, wind speed.
Measurements have been made on top clean athletes, to know how many Watts they might produce, in different circumstances.
When those figures matter, and when it makes sense to calculate them, is at the end of mountain stages. Not just "one mountain" sprint, but actual mountain stages, with a couple of mountains, and in a Grand Tour, so that recuperation has an impact as well.
Based on those datas, top riders until the late 80's (pre EPO era) managed 390 Watts at their best, their averages were rather 10 or 20 Watts below that.
Calculations have shown that with the biggest heart, and all other factors at their (natural) best, a perfect training, etc. a human being wouldn't be able to produce more than 410 Watts average on all the final climbs of a G.T. mountain stages.
As written, nobody came close to that before EPO. Once EPO was introduced, that threshold was totally shattered. The likes of Armstrong averaged more than 440 W.
7% more performance at that level is more than a huge lot. It's more than the difference between a G.T. winner and a guy who'll end up 10th or something like that.
With their former level, the perfectly trained perfect human being wouldn't even end up 10th in a Tour de France G.C. of the Armstrong years, whereas Hinault, LeMond, Fignon, etc. would hardly be top-20. Yet they were among the best/strongest actual human beings ever.
CrueTrue wrote:
According to L'Equipe, Festina might co-sponsor Euskaltel in 2013.
Festina! Well, it's a company I will always associate with professional cycling, so why not? It'll sound a bit weird, but that's unavoidable now that Euskaltel and the Fundación Euskadi are parting their ways.
Me too, but directly after that, I associate it with doping. But well...
Heh - I often see "Würth" on my way to work. "Doping" is my only thought Same goes for Festina.
On almost every construction site fence I see, that strikes my eye as well
Vien wrote:
According to La Gazetta, Lance Armstrong paid 360.000 euros to Michele Ferrari in 2006.
The Padova doping investigation has uncovered that fact.
Any rider found to have worked with Ferrari* will be banned, so there's yet another nail in the armstrong coffin.
*After 2005 when Ferrari was convicted. Because before that conviction, Armstrong worked with Ferrari for many years, always insisting that Ferrari only made "training programs". Yes, his excuse is seriously that a Haematologist (blood specialist) made exercise training programs.
It's up there with Frank Schleck's excuse that he paid Fuentes (a gynecologist) for training programs and not doping.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
Vien wrote:
According to La Gazetta, Lance Armstrong paid 360.000 euros to Michele Ferrari in 2006.
The Padova doping investigation has uncovered that fact.
Any rider found to have worked with Ferrari* will be banned, so there's yet another nail in the armstrong coffin.
*After 2005 when Ferrari was convicted. Because before that conviction, Armstrong worked with Ferrari for many years, always insisting that Ferrari only made "training programs". Yes, his excuse is seriously that a Haematologist (blood specialist) made exercise training programs.
It's up there with Frank Schleck's excuse that he paid Fuentes (a gynecologist) for training programs and not doping.
Wasn't Nibali suspected of working with Ferrari in 2010, or am I mistaken?
Yep, a witness said him and another rider - think it was Pellizotti, can't remember - were secretly meeting Ferrari in switzerland
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
Plus the famous "Men in Black" in 2007. Not sure who they were anymore, Vino, Klöden, I think Evans, Rogers, and 3 or 4 more.
They all pretended they wore black to not be disturbed by tourists while training, but nobody bought that.
Montolivo wrote:
As we are talking about watts do anybody know how much watt the best in the gc did in this years Giro? (Hesjedal, Rodriguez, Scarponi)
Thanks for the link luigi! Even though i don't understand Finnish i understand the numbers.
Likewise thanks very much, interesting read. You get the gist but Google Translate does a pretty good job on the finnish too.
Yeah. Based on the numbers it seems Hesjedal on average of all the climbs in the Giro had 405-410 watts.
So... Hesjedal doped. A clean cyclist never goes above 390, like you said. I'm really pissed at him.
Weirdly enough, it seems many of the Top Giro GC riders are high up in these lists... It could be that the info is not 100% accurate, they all did very well, or all doped... Ryder usually releases all of his info from his GPS himself, like heartrate and everything, so I dont want to believe it.
I dont know, but I've always thought Ryder to be one of the bigger gear cyclists, and some of the names he's up with, not "all" of them were caught for doping.
And baseball, he also rode for Rabo CT in 2003 Whats with your love for him all of a sudden, btw?
Sorry but missed these posts before. What's with the doom and gloom the numbers I saw for him look pretty plausible and fit in with what little I know from Science of Sport site - did I miss something :/
Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring.
Same goes for Festina.
Even though i don't understand Finnish i understand the numbers.
A clean cyclist never goes above 390, like you said. I'm really pissed at him.
Ryder usually releases all of his info from his GPS himself, like heartrate and everything, so I dont want to believe it.
