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Vuelta a España - Week 2
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 31-08-2012 21:10
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De Gendt was not right behind Purito. He lost tons of time and gained back 5 minutes on 1 stage. Still finishing 3rd.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| Ybodonk |
Posted on 31-08-2012 21:16
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Bookie wrote:
Ybodonk wrote:
To the formerly much heated Gesink vs De Gendt discussion, once again im very pleased to see that Gesink is 1.000 times better than De Gendt. And that i was right in the comparison of those two was very ridicoulus. I did say i didnt even see him as a top 10-20 candidate, when all the best was there. And i was right.
Ofc Gesink is not up there with the very best, but it is well deserved that he gets some kind of success and ends in top 5. Good job Gesink (im not a fan at all)
Erm, except that De Gendt had a shitty preparation and is nowhere near his Giro form. You cannot compare them unless they are both in top form. You could also say that De Gendt was right behind Purito in the Giro, and Gesink is further behind - does that make De Gendt 'win' the competition?
Wait and see on the long term. Premature statements are worthless.
Long term ? That is exactly my point. De Gendt ended third in a weak giro, through a breakaway and good TT. most of the users here went crazy in a very much heated discussion, where i was one of the few defending Gesink.
Most people claimed that De Gendt was better etc than Gesink, and i got a lot of heat because i was defending Gesink. They was basing their claims because of his third place. That is not enough data and or results to make the conclusion ; De Gendt is better than Gesink.
De Gendt had every opportunity to prepare perfect, unlike Gesink who crashed 4 times and dropped out of the TDF.
I dont remember whether you participated in that discussion, but if you did, then you would remember it like me
And i will still take Gesink any day over De Gendt. Just like i would take Contador any day over the whole Team Sky next year. |
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| Bookie |
Posted on 31-08-2012 21:27
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Ybodonk wrote:
Long term ? That is exactly my point. De Gendt ended third in a weak giro, through a breakaway and good TT.
So TT don't count in a GT? Erm...?
If 'long term' is 'exactly your point', then you're ignoring your own advice by saying that now everybody can see Gesink is 1000x stronger than De Gendt. That's beyond ridiculous. It's pointless to refer to the fact that De Gendt could've had a perfect preparation. He didn't, that's what matters. You have to compare the riders after they've gone head to head in their best form - and preferably more than once. That's how comparisons work in science and how you can reach objective conclusions. |
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| Ybodonk |
Posted on 31-08-2012 21:30
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Domestique
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Bookie wrote:
Ybodonk wrote:
Long term ? That is exactly my point. De Gendt ended third in a weak giro, through a breakaway and good TT.
So TT don't count in a GT? Erm...?
If 'long term' is 'exactly your point', then you're ignoring your own advice by saying that now everybody can see Gesink is 1000x stronger than De Gendt. That's beyond ridiculous. It's pointless to refer to the fact that De Gendt could've had a perfect preparation. He didn't, that's what matters. You have to compare the riders after they've gone head to head in their best form - and preferably more than once. That's how comparisons work in science and how you can reach objective conclusions.
So with your well written and articulated posts, you would and have already compared De Gendts results vs Gesinks.. After that you have the conclusion.
Exactly De Gendt in his best form, is not half the climber Gesink is 
This is based on Gesinks perfomances the past 5 years. Furthermore everybody tends to forget that Gesink actually still is relatively young.
As Baseballlover also did write, De Gendt didnt hang on puritos wheel in the vuelta, he did win all the lost time back in his breakaway stage. |
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 31-08-2012 21:33
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Bookie, you're just making ridiculous statements. De Gendt is a decent climber with good time trialing ability. You do need a good TT, your just ignoring other points. Did you not see the stelvio? Before that he was in the late top ten. Gesink is far from his best form, yet he is absolutely destroying as a guy who crashed out of his last big race and in no way could prepare. De Gendt could, and how do you know he didn't.
Edited by baseballlover312 on 31-08-2012 21:48
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| Ybodonk |
Posted on 31-08-2012 21:39
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Domestique
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baseballlover312 wrote:
Bookie, you're just making ridiculous statements. De Gendt is a decent climber with good time trialing ability. You do need a good TT, your just ignoring other points. Did you not see the telvio? Before that he was in the late top ten. Gesink is far from his best form, yet he is absolutely destroying a guy who crashed out of his last big race and in no way could prepare. De Gendt could, and how do you know he didn't.
+1
100 percent agreed again
Hope Bookie atleast will try to understand our posts and points |
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| Bookie |
Posted on 31-08-2012 21:42
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Ybodonk wrote:
So with your well written and articulated posts, you would and have already compared De Gendts results vs Gesinks.. After that you have the conclusion.
Exactly De Gendt in his best form, is not half the climber Gesink is
This is based on Gesinks perfomances the past 5 years. Furthermore everybody tends to forget that Gesink actually still is relatively young.
As Baseballlover also did write, De Gendt didnt hang on puritos wheel in the vuelta, he did win all the lost time back in his breakaway stage.
You have no comparison base, because you only have De Gendt's results from one (1!) GT. It doesn't matter whether you have 5 years of Gesink data, and conclusions are premature. De Gendt lost 1 minute in the team time trial and 2 minutes by a flat tire in the Giro. He won back a little over 3 minutes in an escape he carried for the most part (in who's wheel was Purito the whole Giro?).
You're trying to make me a De Gendt fan, which I'm not - that's diluting and obscuring the argument at hand: you cannot yet compare De Gendt and Gesink. Period.
baseballlover312 wrote:
Bookie, you're just making ridiculous statements. De Gendt is a decent climber with good time trialing ability. You do need a good TT, your just ignoring other points. Did you not see the telvio? Before that he was in the late top ten. Gesink is far from his best form, yet he is absolutely destroying a guy who crashed out of his last big race and in no way could prepare. De Gendt could, and how do you know he didn't.
Gesink could in no way prepare? Who says that? Wiggins crashed out of the Tour last year with a fracture - he ended 3rd in the Vuelta. De Gendt had a worthless preparation, probably due to his and his team's non-professionalism. He gained weight, then he lost 3 or 4 kilos in 10 days time, a week before the Vuelta. His Belgian TT proved his bad form, and after dropping on the first several hills, he gave up on GC in the Vuelta and is clearly concentrating on stage wins.
Look, science is my daily work, and I'm telling you: you do not have enough data to compare Gesink and De Gendt's credentials as grand tour riders. Extrapolating from almost no data yields huge uncertainty and is just pretty pointless. Wait 2-3 years.
Edited by Bookie on 31-08-2012 21:49
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| aymen |
Posted on 31-08-2012 21:52
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Sorry but I think De Gendt is better than Gesink.
Look at Gesink he's a shit, he didn't do anything in the TDF while De Gendt made a third place giro, don't forget that before the breakaway he was the 5th so he do some good climbs but the important that before the climb he has just one minute of advance and after a long solo Ride he extended to 5 minutes, Rodriguez reduce it to 4'30 i think but de Gendt realized a top 3.Unlike this Lazy Gesink who was dopping in the 2010 Tour and then he regret his sins |
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 31-08-2012 21:52
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Fine. I will give you De Gendt's Gt results before this year to help you prove our point.
Last years Tour - 62nd.
That's it.
For small tours he has nothing but a couple of TT and breakaway wins on stages in Paris Nice and Suisse. So where is your data?
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| kumazan |
Posted on 31-08-2012 21:54
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Gesink is better than De Gendt, I don't think anyone could seriously defend a different position. But, for a rider who is 1000 times worse, De Gendt has a GT podium, and Gesink hasn't any. There's more than strength in cycling (something that can't be appreciated in the current Vuelta route, which is one of the reasons I despise it).
Edited by kumazan on 31-08-2012 21:54
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 31-08-2012 21:56
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aymen wrote:
Sorry but I think De Gendt is better than Gesink.
Look at Gesink he's a shit, he didn't do anything in the TDF while De Gendt made a third place giro, don't forget that before the breakaway he was the 5th so he do some good climbs but the important that before the climb he has just one minute of advance and after a long solo Ride he extended to 5 minutes, Rodriguez reduce it to 4'30 i think but de Gendt realized a top 3.Unlike this Lazy Gesink who was dopping in the 2010 Tour and then he regret his sins
Can aymen be banned already? This is freaking out of control. Gesink crashed out. Get it. He crashed. That's his downfall. He is always injured.
And De Gendt finished 11th on stage 18. He was 8th overall after that with the group of outsiders.
Edited by baseballlover312 on 31-08-2012 21:57
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| MartijnVDD |
Posted on 31-08-2012 21:57
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I was defending De Gendt back then and I still am. De Gendt stated already before the start of this Vuelta that he was aiming for a stage win, not for a GC. Same goes for VDB, who's preparing for the World Championships.
De Gendt's probably happy enough with his 3rd place in the Giro and his wedding. Gesink, on the other hand, obviously isn't because of his crash in the Tour (again) and so he needs this Vuelta to prove he's still there.
Though, I have to admit I underestimated Gesink back then. If he manages to stay on his bike, he can ride top 5.
baseballlover312 wrote:
Fine. I will give you De Gendt's Gt results before this year to help you prove our point.
Last years Tour - 62nd.
That's it.
He was riding with a collarbone fracture back then, but restored in the last week finishing 6th on Alpe d'Huez and 4th in the TT.
I do agree with Bookie about the comparison being too early to be made. I sincerely hope they can both ride a well prepared TDF next year.
Edited by MartijnVDD on 31-08-2012 22:12
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| Pellizotti2 |
Posted on 31-08-2012 21:58
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World Champion
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Seriously, aymen. Stop accusing every rider.
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 31-08-2012 21:59
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aymen wrote:
Sorry but I think De Gendt is better than Gesink.
Look at Gesink he's a shit, he didn't do anything in the TDF while De Gendt made a third place giro, don't forget that before the breakaway he was the 5th so he do some good climbs but the important that before the climb he has just one minute of advance and after a long solo Ride he extended to 5 minutes, Rodriguez reduce it to 4'30 i think but de Gendt realized a top 3.Unlike this Lazy Gesink who was dopping in the 2010 Tour and then he regret his sins Randomly defending doping guys, then randomly accusing guys who're not suspicious of doping.
Erm, cognitive dissonance ? |
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| ruben |
Posted on 31-08-2012 22:00
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Seriously, baseballover etc. Why do you even start a discussion with retards? Or Belgians on this matter?
It's useless. |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 31-08-2012 22:00
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kumazan wrote:
Gesink is better than De Gendt, I don't think anyone could seriously defend a different position. But, for a rider who is 1000 times worse, De Gendt has a GT podium, and Gesink hasn't any. There's more than strength in cycling (something that can't be appreciated in the current Vuelta route, which is one of the reasons I despise it).
Strength of impacts on the ground is still a matter of strength, however you look at it, IMO. 
Agreed with the rest (of course).
Edited by Aquarius on 31-08-2012 22:01
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| ruben |
Posted on 31-08-2012 22:03
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Aquarius wrote:
kumazan wrote:
Gesink is better than De Gendt, I don't think anyone could seriously defend a different position. But, for a rider who is 1000 times worse, De Gendt has a GT podium, and Gesink hasn't any. There's more than strength in cycling (something that can't be appreciated in the current Vuelta route, which is one of the reasons I despise it).
Strength of impacts on the ground is still a matter of strength, however you look at it, IMO.
Agreed with the rest (of course).
Yeah like luck. If Mosquera doesn't decide to go down in the Vuelta 2009, Gesink had a GT podium and we would not even have thid discussion.
Cycling has so much random factors... |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 31-08-2012 22:05
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Meanwhile, we've got power outputs for the first part of the Vuelta :
https://www.cyclis...dopage.htm
It doesn't mean much, as it's too short, or rather : any 410 W thingy does not apply here. Longer mountains should have a bigger meaning.
Also, it says that W/kg doesn't mean as much (when comparing riders) than Watts (for a 70+8 kg model) because two riders could ride at the same speed with different W/kg ratios. |
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| aymen |
Posted on 31-08-2012 22:06
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Stagiare
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Aquarius wrote:
aymen wrote:
Sorry but I think De Gendt is better than Gesink.
Look at Gesink he's a shit, he didn't do anything in the TDF while De Gendt made a third place giro, don't forget that before the breakaway he was the 5th so he do some good climbs but the important that before the climb he has just one minute of advance and after a long solo Ride he extended to 5 minutes, Rodriguez reduce it to 4'30 i think but de Gendt realized a top 3.Unlike this Lazy Gesink who was dopping in the 2010 Tour and then he regret his sins Randomly defending doping guys, then randomly accusing guys who're not suspicious of doping.
Erm, cognitive dissonance ?
Gesink finished the 2010 Tour 6th with playing team-mate with menchov and now he can barely do a top 5 in Vuelta and Giro(in TDF he will do more than top 10), sorry but I think I'm not wrong,I liked Gesink back then and every year I was enthusiastic to see him competing for the Tour and every year I'm disappointed, I think really De Gendt is a lot better and younger I think(26 years while Gesink have 27 no??) |
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| Pellizotti2 |
Posted on 31-08-2012 22:08
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They're both born in 1986. Gesink in May and De Gendt in November though.
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