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TdF'13 Stage 21 - Versailles to Paris (July 21)
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| BritPCMFan |
Posted on 22-07-2013 21:18
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Stagiare
Posts: 245
Joined: 03-06-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Cossack wrote:
BritPCMFan wrote:
Lol. Sky's winnings are more then my average annual PCM wage bill.
You have to remember that winnings were just displayed by teams, but most of them were given directly to riders, not the team.
Most of my PCM wages go to the riders too. |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 22-07-2013 21:24
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5220
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
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BritPCMFan wrote:
Aquarius
Of course wind conditions must be considered (and they are in most models), but Froome had equivalent or worst wind conditions than Armstrong, etc.
Also the length of the stage, and its profile, matter, as well as the stage number (ridden in the first week is not like ridden in the end of the third week), to judge what riders fatigue level might be. [/b]
Wait, the rest of the stage matters now?
So... we need to take into account the rest of the stage, but ignore the first 5k of the climb and only take into account the last 15.6? I'm failing to see the logic in that one.
My main point from the start of this hasn't been that Froome is clean because over 21.6k his time is slower. I've pointed out that a difference of 15 seconds over that terrain and distance is not a whole lot.
It was mainly because one user decided to mock another user as being incorrect by using very specific data that was misleading. The simple fact is that he was not quicker up Ventoux then Lance.
As I said, it really doesn't it any less suspicious.
1) The measurement makes sense when the slope is steep enough, otherwise the aero effects are too important and too complex to properly quantify. That's why the timing from Saint-Estève is 100x more relevant than the one from 5 km before.
2) Froome was 15 seconds faster than Armstrong, but with all the variables to take into account, it doesn't really matter. Say he'd have had a bit more headwind and he'd do 5 seconds more than Armstrong ? What does it say ? Over such a long effort : not much. The difference is negligible. Froome matched Armstrong's performances. Saying he was faster (albeit by a tiny margin) is mostly a way to emphasis it.
3) The length and profile of the stage (included the 5 km before Saint-Estève  ) matter, because it's somewhat easier to do 420 W (random figure) during 50 minutes after a one hour ride in a classic than it is in a Grand Tour, after two weeks of racing, plenty of ascents prior, and 4 hours at an insane pace. The fatigue prior to the effort is very different.
BritPCMFan wrote:
One thing has interested me. Your a bit of an expert with these things so you might be able to explain it.
Are the 2009 times actually slowly then they could have been if rode Froome style? He was going near flat out and then flat out for the majority of that climb (behind Porte is pretty near flat i think). In 2009, the lead guys were in a group for much longer iirc, so they would have been watching each other and not always riding at their max. I'm thinking it probably minimal since they would have put in more attacks, which probably counterbalanced but I'd be interested on your opinions as I know you have more expert knowledge.
For physical reasons, the fastest way from point A to point B for a machine with a power unit (a cyclist is one in the end) is a steady pace, the most linear one, but one that's as fast as possible (and should theoretically lead to total exhaustion once the finish line has been crossed).
If I reckon correctly, 2009 average power outputs were rather higher than those of 2013, but maybe someone could do some fact checking here ?
Assuming it was case (and calculated on maximal efforts, and preferably on long climbs, in both cases), and assuming other variables would be strictly equal, then yes, they could have climbed faster in 2009 than in 2013.
Edited by Aquarius on 22-07-2013 21:26
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| Cossack |
Posted on 22-07-2013 22:42
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Domestique
Posts: 582
Joined: 16-07-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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BritPCMFan wrote:
Cossack wrote:
BritPCMFan wrote:
Lol. Sky's winnings are more then my average annual PCM wage bill.
You have to remember that winnings were just displayed by teams, but most of them were given directly to riders, not the team.
Most of my PCM wages go to the riders too.
I meant that in PCM 2013 prize money also is given directly to riders, you pay them only their base salary. |
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 24-07-2013 10:22
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Team Manager
Posts: 33046
Joined: 08-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Would definitely recommend going to Paris to watch the final stage, great fun. Although with it being in the evening, it did make for quite a long day of waiting!
As ever, in amongst watching the race, I took some photos.
Some of my favourites being:
More at https://www.flickr.com/photos/sumofmar...757158008/, if anyone cares
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 24-07-2013 10:56
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 21854
Joined: 01-05-2012
PCM$: 400.00
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Wow, that 3rd one is one for the papers  |
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| Stromeon |
Posted on 24-07-2013 11:00
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3507
Joined: 06-10-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Those are some great photos - I especially like the 3rd one and the 5th one 
The last one is quite funny actually - the podium girl on the right looks like she's crying, Eddy looks like he's trying to go to sleep, and Prudhomme and Hinault are eying up the other podium girl
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 24-07-2013 11:03
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 21854
Joined: 01-05-2012
PCM$: 400.00
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Stromeon wrote:
The last one is quite funny actually - the podium girl on the right looks like she's crying, Eddy looks like he's trying to go to sleep, and Prudhomme and Hinault are eying up the other podium girl
Wow, hadn't seen all that yet 
Indeed, Eddy must be tired after that career and Prudhomme and Hinault may be eyeing that podium girl, but they're not looking at her eyes, more like 20 cm below that area |
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| SSJ2Luigi |
Posted on 24-07-2013 15:38
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World Champion
Posts: 11971
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 400.00
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SportingNonsense wrote:
wow Westra does look awful 
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 25-11-2024 10:52
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Bot Agent
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Joined: 23.11.09
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 24-07-2013 15:41
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15274
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Very nice pics SN!
And indeed, poor Westra
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| sutty68 |
Posted on 24-07-2013 15:51
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 34654
Joined: 22-08-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Some Great pics SN |
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| SportingNonsense |
Posted on 24-07-2013 20:09
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Team Manager
Posts: 33046
Joined: 08-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Thanks all.
And yeh, Westra ended up miles behind, going quite slowly. He was well over half a lap down the last time that he went past me.
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| BritPCMFan |
Posted on 24-07-2013 21:21
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Stagiare
Posts: 245
Joined: 03-06-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Cossack wrote:
BritPCMFan wrote:
Cossack wrote:
BritPCMFan wrote:
Lol. Sky's winnings are more then my average annual PCM wage bill.
You have to remember that winnings were just displayed by teams, but most of them were given directly to riders, not the team.
Most of my PCM wages go to the riders too.
I meant that in PCM 2013 prize money also is given directly to riders, you pay them only their base salary.
I know . I should have said "Sky's winnings are more then my entire team on PCM earns in a year" originally. They earned more riding the tour then my team does all year was basically the point but i worded it badly.
Then I just decided to play with you
~EDIT: Oh, and really nice photos btw SN. Gratz on being there
Edited by BritPCMFan on 24-07-2013 21:22
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| ShortsNL |
Posted on 29-07-2013 10:44
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 898
Joined: 17-11-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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Here's an interesting column by Koen De Kort, on how he lead out Kittel on the Champs Elysées. It gives some great insights.
Dutch:
https://www.nuspor...feest.html
English:
https://translate....feest.html |
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