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Take Back The Tour
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| kadel |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:03
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issoisso wrote:
Communism has led to less dictatorships than Capitalism. it's just a more romanticised version to think of it as automatically leading to dictatorship.
Communism won't work because it's a utopia. but it does not in any way lead to automatic dictatorships or anything close to it.
So where in the world has capitalism led to dictatorships? Perhaps you're going to mention some of the dictatorships the US has supported? That was realpolitik and has nothing to do with capitalism.
Autocracy, Theocracy and Communism has led to the most dictatorships in the world.
The absence of communism in dictatorships doesn't mean capitalism has lead to dictatorship. Every country in that world that engages in free trade and global capitalism has experienced wealth and a higher level of standard. Just look at Japan and South Korea when they switched to global capitalism. Look at what's happening to China now.
Globalisation and capitalism is good.
Edited by kadel on 10-06-2008 23:04
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| Waghlon |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:05
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Capitalism have lead to an America where corporations can push laws around like they want to. Thats kinds a dictatorship if you ask me.
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| issoisso |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:06
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kadel wrote:
So where in the world has capitalism led to dictatorships? Perhaps you're going to mention some of the dictatorships the US has supported? That was realpolitik and has nothing to do with capitalism.
How are the Pinochets of this world not capitalism?
kadel wrote:
The absense of communism in dictatorships doesn't mean capitalism has lead to dictatorship. Every country in that world that engages in free trade and global capitalism has experienced wealth and a higher level of standard. Just look at Japan and South Korea when they switched to global capitalism. Look at what's happening to China now.
That has a lot to do with restructuring of social classes and natural economic growth and less to do with the political system.
kadel wrote:
Globalisation and capitalism is good.
I never said otherwise. I do however take offence to your stereotyping of communism.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| kadel |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:07
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Domestique
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issoisso wrote:
I've been enjoying Kadel's posts so far, but these today scare me. It's not the fact that he disagrees with me, far from it. it's the predetermined "X is wrong, Y is awesome" ideology.
It's certainly the fact that you disagree, you don't acknowledge that there is good and evil while I do. You can choose to live in your warm fuzzy world but some day you'll get mugged by reality 
I don't see things in black and white, I just treat the world the way it is. Cold and gritty waiting to get the best of you. |
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| kadel |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:09
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Domestique
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Pinnochet was never a product of capitalism. He was a general that took power in a military coup. He then tried, unsuccessfully, to install a free market system based on the principles of Milton Friedman the the University of Chicago. He failed to succeed with capitalism because his authoritarian military regime does not comply with capitalism. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:10
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kadel wrote:
It's certainly the fact that you disagree, you don't acknowledge that there is good and evil while I do. You can choose to live in your warm fuzzy world but some day you'll get mugged by reality
Oh but I do. it's just not separated into neat little boxes marked "good" and "evil"
kadel wrote:
I don't see things in black and white, I just treat the world the way it is. Cold and gritty waiting to get the best of you.
Yes you do see things in black and white. I see the world as taking advantage of you at the nearest opportunity, but I don't mark people organizations or countries as "good" or "evil". evil is in each of us.
Mark my words, one day a person who you would trust your life to, someone you would never under any situation even slightly contemplate the fact that they might one day do something dishonest. One day such a person will screw you for money. And not just a small amount.
Show me someone 40 years old or older who's never gone through that. And I'll show you someone who never trusted anyone.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| kadel |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:15
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Domestique
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Well I don't trust anyone, I don't depend on anyone and I don't blame others if things should go wrong.
However, relativism is social suicide because you end up tolerating ideologies that doesn't tolerate you. There is a natural moral, there is good and evil, but I certainly don't put people in those boxes because people are deceitful. However, countries like Iran and ideologies like Islamofascism are easy call evil, because that is their nature.
Edited by kadel on 10-06-2008 23:19
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| Waghlon |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:16
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Grand Tour Champion
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Read the thread fully this time:
Kadel, you are wrong, your military sources are wrong and i suspect you put a bit too much faith in what your parents told you about the world situation. Im sorry, but thats the way i see it.
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| kadel |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:18
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Domestique
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so.. where are your arguments?
Edited by kadel on 10-06-2008 23:18
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| Waghlon |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:19
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kadel wrote:
so.. where are your arguments?
Where are yours? You are just reading up what youve been taught.
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| issoisso |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:20
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kadel wrote:
Well I don't trust anyone, I don't depend on anyone and I don't blame others if things should go wrong.
good for you. you'll end up a lonely, but very rich man 
kadel wrote:
However, relativism is social suicide because you end up tolerating ideologies that doesn't tolerate your own.
Only in an intolerant society. And where I live everyone is very tolerant. that's why we have so many immigrants.
iWaghlon wrote:
you put a bit too much faith in what your parents told you about the world situation.
Not that I'm agreeing with you, but I do think his views are very stereotipically american
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| kadel |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:21
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Domestique
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No I'm arguing from my set of principles and beliefs. Just because you disagree does not mean you can devalue them. However it seems as though you have left your principles many years ago when you entered the cult of multiculturalism and relativism that are taught in European schools.
Relativism leads to nihilism, Europe is a good example. |
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| kadel |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:24
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Domestique
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issoisso wrote:
b]kadel wrote:[/b]
However, relativism is social suicide because you end up tolerating ideologies that doesn't tolerate your own.
Only in an intolerant society. And where I live everyone is very tolerant. that's why we have so many immigrants.
quote]
I am a tolerant guy, but tolerance becomes a crime when applied to intolerance and evil. I believe in an open mind, but not so open that your brain falls out
Though I have to say, large parts of the muslim population is not tolerant at all, and the inabillity to fight this intolerance (ex muhammad drawings) is frightening me.
Edited by kadel on 10-06-2008 23:24
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| Waghlon |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:24
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Grand Tour Champion
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kadel wrote:
No I'm arguing from my set of principles and beliefs. Just because you disagree does not mean you can devalue them
How can you devalue mine and call communism evil then?
However it seems as though you have left your principles many years ago when you entered the cult of multiculturalism and relativism that are taught in European schools.
There are zero things wrong with multiculturalism and relatvism im afraid.
Relativism leads to nihilism, Europe is a good example.
I still believe the average european is less filled with hatred and nihilism than the average american.
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| issoisso |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:25
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Tour de France Champion
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kadel wrote:
No I'm arguing from my set of principles and beliefs. Just because you disagree does not mean you can devalue them. However it seems as though you have left your principles many years ago when you entered the cult of multiculturalism and relativism that are taught in European schools.
Do you mean me? You have quite the stereotypical (and wrong) view of european schools. For one, you're generalizing an entire continent.
kadel wrote:
Relativism leads to nihilism, Europe is a good example.
No, the entirety of western society is a good example. Also, what has nihilism got to do with the subject at hand?
And finally, why is nihilism bad? it's just as valid as any other view on life.
kadel wrote:
Though I have to say, large parts of the muslim population is not tolerant at all, and the inabillity to fight this intolerance (ex muhammad drawings) is frightening me.
The problem isn't the mass. it's the few individuals spewing crap into their minds. Show them the situation for what it is, and they'll take their own conclusions. Sadly, doing that is nearly impossible.
And don't think for a moment you're the only one frightened by it. The situation in Pakistan right now is that any lunatic can push a button and start a nuclear war.
Edited by issoisso on 10-06-2008 23:30
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| kadel |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:30
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Domestique
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I did not devalue your core set of beliefs, I made clear arguments on why communism time after time again has lead to the most horrific and evil acts in human history. I don't even think communism is an ideology, it's a religion.
Good people do good things, bad people do bad things but it takes religion to make good people do bad things.
The average European is nihilist, the average American is patriotic and proud of their country. Think you mistunderstood the concept of nihilism a little there.
Where is the good things with multiculturalism? Look at France what mess their immigration has led too, how about Holland. By 2015 with the current reproductionrate, Amsterdam will have a muslim majority. Europeans are, because of relativism giving up all the core values of our Western society and it leads to the demise of both relativism and western society. Relativism has no values, no beliefs, it accepts everything, even intolerance of your own society and it ultimately self-destructs. |
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| kadel |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:33
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I didn't mean you issoisso.
Nihilism is bad because it's selfhating and it doesn't have any core values or moral. A nihilist does not believe in any objective moral, by that standard child molesters and suicide bombers could be argued as being moral, which I disagree with because I think there is such a thing as an objective moral. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:35
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Tour de France Champion
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kadel wrote:
I did not devalue your core set of beliefs, I made clear arguments on why communism time after time again has lead to the most horrific and evil acts in human history. I don't even think communism is an ideology, it's a religion.
And we disagree with them. it's as simple as that.
kadel wrote:
Good people do good things, bad people do bad things but it takes religion to make good people do bad things.
Something we can easily agree on
kadel wrote:
The average European is nihilist
Far from it. the average world youth is nihilist
kadel wrote:
, the average American is patriotic and proud of their country.
There is no country in the world where the average national isn't patriotic and proud of their country
kadel wrote:
Where is the good things with multiculturalism?
multiculturalism is bad? if multiculturalism is bad, by that logic (I'm assuming you're american) your ancestors should've stayed where they were centuries ago.
kadel wrote:
Look at France what mess their immigration has led too, how about Holland. By 2015 with the current reproductionrate, Amsterdam will have a muslim majority.
A muslim majority is a bad thing? Why? You're scaring me.
kadel wrote:
Europeans are, because of relativism giving up all the core values of our Western society and it leads to the demise of both relativism and western society. Relativism has no values, no beliefs, it accepts everything, even intolerance of your own society and it ultimately self-destructs.
No, it leads to a society where there are no generalized values, but instead individual values. Rejecting multiculturalism leads to a society where anything "different" is shunned and exposed to be scorned.
kadel wrote:
Nihilism is bad because it's selfhating and it doesn't have any core values or moral.
Self-Hating? where did you get that? again, that's very stereotypical.
kadel wrote:
A nihilist does not believe in any objective moral, by that standard child molesters and suicide bombers could be argued as being moral
No one goes to that extreme. no one. literally no one.
Edited by issoisso on 10-06-2008 23:36
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| kadel |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:37
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Domestique
Posts: 480
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issoisso wrote:
The problem isn't the mass. it's the few individuals spewing crap into their minds. Show them the situation for what it is, and they'll take their own conclusions. Sadly, doing that is nearly impossible.
And don't think for a moment you're the only one frightened by it. The situation in Pakistan right now is that any lunatic can push a button and start a nuclear war.
It is not the mass, correct. However, there is no denying that Islamofascism and Wahhabism are the dominant forces in modern Islam today and they have millions, perhaps hundreds of millions of sympathisers. I don't really care what majority of muslims think, because it is those with the ak47's, anthrax and dirty nuclear bombs that run the show. As long as the majority of muslims that loves freedom doesn't stand up and fend for themselves against the islamofascists, they are no better.
Ultimately, Islam has to change from within, the only thing we can do for the time being is fight back to defend our own society.
The fact is, more muslims have been tortured and killed by other muslims in history, than by any other nation or people. So it's not us they should be angry at, it's their own muslim oppressors. |
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| Waghlon |
Posted on 10-06-2008 23:40
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kadel wrote:
Good people do good things, bad people do bad things but it takes religion to make good people do bad things.
True
The average European is nihilist,
I think its realist to be honest. You cant walk around and pretend we can keep living in perfect standstill.
the average American is patriotic and proud of their country.
[stereotype]Yee-haw, lets go kill them sand-nig****![/stereotype]
words
For a second i believed you were trying to save us from those big bad moslems guys. Then i realized you were just trying make us think american. Im sorry, but occasionally i look at America and think "Im happy its not like that here".
Edited by Waghlon on 10-06-2008 23:40
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