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PCMdaily DB Stat Discussion
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| Dusen |
Posted on 24-08-2014 14:33
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TankNL wrote:
@Dusen; you are getting this al the wrong way... I'm stating that this kind of stats discussion are all biased by believes of individuals. You are only fueling my statement...
And I'm not putting Contador down... If you would have read my thread you would have seen adjustment to put the calculated stats to actual database stats;
Mountains;
Valverde 83 -> 81
Rodriguez 82 -> 81
Nibali 83 -> 82
Contador 81 -> 82
Froome 81 -> 82
Peraud 80 -> 81
ten Dam 78 -> 79 (I'm dutch Smile )
This is my opinion... the only difference is that I'm not stating that other opinions are wrong (or even blasphemy :lol 
So basicly you put a bunch of results together and then tweak them a bit as you please?
Seems like the same thing to me ?
If you actually didn't touch the stats you got from your program, then that would be different.
Peraud should only be 80 and closer to 79 then 81, Valverde is not a 80 MO rider anymore the way i see it. And Nibali hasn't proven against the top climbers in the world, that he deserves the same stat as them.
Through the whole spring season he got put in his place by Froome and Contador. And on stage 8 Contador beat him as well.
Ten Dam i am in doubt about. Either you give him 79 and bad support stats or 78 and good support stats i think
Edited by Dusen on 24-08-2014 14:42
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 24-08-2014 15:03
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
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Jesleyh wrote:
Quickly looking at the results, it seems that TvG never even managed to stay in the same group as Pinot, let alone beating him even once.
78MO is enough for Tejay. As said, Pinot was really a 50/50(Alak and I had multiple discussions about that  ), but got 80MO with low backup stats.
@Dusen Well, Pinot got 7th in the Vuelta and is really developing well atm. Tejay always profits from his TT and was never a ''star'' in the mountains itself, though it seems he's getting stronger.
Umm? What? Only twice that I can remember did he finish not in the group with Pinot. once he bonked, the other he was in the chase with Bardet. That is a 1 sat point difference. Not 2.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| haasje33 |
Posted on 24-08-2014 15:10
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Sprinter
Posts: 1679
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The finish line counts. If you look at the results, TvG lost time to Pinot in almost every mountain stage.
Inactive due to personal reasons.
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| bajbar |
Posted on 24-08-2014 15:15
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Under 23
Posts: 84
Joined: 15-08-2010
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I believe Majka's MO stat of 78 is too low. For example, Peraud has 2 points higher MO than him, but he did not finish ahead of Majka on any of the four big mountain top finishes in the Tour. Same for Pinot (who did outsprint him for 2 seconds on Hautacam). Okay, twice he won from the breakaway, but his advantage to the mentioned two riders did not shrink at all (or by a small amount) during the final climbs. And on the other two MTF's they started in the group together. So I believe at least 79 for Majka. |
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| Dusen |
Posted on 24-08-2014 15:21
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bajbar wrote:
I believe Majka's MO stat of 78 is too low. For example, Peraud has 2 points higher MO than him, but he did not finish ahead of Majka on any of the four big mountain top finishes in the Tour. Same for Pinot (who did outsprint him for 2 seconds on Hautacam). Okay, twice he won from the breakaway, but his advantage to the mentioned two riders did not shrink at all (or by a small amount) during the final climbs. And on the other two MTF's they started in the group together. So I believe at least 79 for Majka.
I can second that one. One has to remember that he did sit with the big guns on the last stage.
And his giro downfall on the last few mountain stages was due to sickness if that hadn't occured he could have challenged for top 3.
But i guess the second is pure speculation. I don't think it would hurt to let him have 79 in MO. Maybe give him mediocar support stats to even it out ?
Edited by Dusen on 24-08-2014 15:23
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 24-08-2014 15:25
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
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He lost time to Pinot in the finishing sprints, sure. how is that 2 mountain points though? I'm not saying they should be equal. I'm saying Pinot should be 1 higher.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 24-08-2014 15:28
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15274
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Another thing we've debated about very long.
It's always easier to ride a few good stages than consistently riding with the top.
We felt 78MO was better for now.
For instance, he saved energy at stage 12 before doing great at 13 and 14, and he saved energy at stage 16 before doing great at 17 and 18.
@BBL
Go check the results. I believe he never finished with the same time as Pinot in the mountain stages.
Edit: Excuse me, stage 17. Anyway, Van Garderen has better support stats than Pinot.
Edited by Jesleyh on 24-08-2014 15:31
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| Evel1986 |
Posted on 24-08-2014 15:44
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Amateur
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Joined: 09-07-2013
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I think, a lot of you are in the opinion that cycling is only the tour de france, but it gives a lot of races, Nibali wasn´t so strong like a Contador or a Froome.
On Tirreno Contador shows Quintana how strong he was, a ride over 40 km in the Front and on the Tour de France this year the only stage with a climbing at the end, which have the duel of Nibali and Contador, wins Contador, how many of you think that Nibali was stronger than Contador? |
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| Dusen |
Posted on 24-08-2014 15:55
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Posts: 1173
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Kittel dragged his ass over the hill in Vattenfall Classic. 63 seems a little far fetched then
EDIT: But not able to contest the sprint
Edited by Dusen on 24-08-2014 16:04
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 09:40
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| Arberg27 |
Posted on 24-08-2014 16:36
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Bouhanni should be one of the best, surpassed only by Kittel
Edited by Arberg27 on 24-08-2014 16:36
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| dark_x2012 |
Posted on 24-08-2014 19:14
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 857
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I am about to commit suicide.. How many ****** who either don't know a shit about cycling tellin Valverde is the best GC rider in the world and will probably win Giro, Tour and Vuelta next year cuz he's consistent. Or that Contador only wins when the others are in terrible shape even though he beat Valv a week before the Ardennes where Valverde was in great shape or Froome just three weeks before his main objective.
Please guys when you're either fukin biased or when everybody tells you kindly that you're not right(I understand people having diferent opinions but not having dumb opinions) don't comment more than once.
Edited by dark_x2012 on 24-08-2014 19:14
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| TankNL |
Posted on 24-08-2014 19:34
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Domestique
Posts: 440
Joined: 19-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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dark_x2012 wrote:
I am about to commit suicide.. How many ****** who either don't know a shit about cycling tellin Valverde is the best GC rider in the world and will probably win Giro, Tour and Vuelta next year cuz he's consistent. Or that Contador only wins when the others are in terrible shape even though he beat Valv a week before the Ardennes where Valverde was in great shape or Froome just three weeks before his main objective.
Please guys when you're either fukin biased or when everybody tells you kindly that you're not right(I understand people having diferent opinions but not having dumb opinions) don't comment more than once.
I fail to see your point... Where do you see people telling that Valverde is the best GC rider? This thread is called stats discussion... this is not discussing, but attacking others. |
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 24-08-2014 19:51
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
Joined: 27-07-2011
PCM$: 10438.70
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Dusen wrote:
TankNL wrote:
@Dusen; you are getting this al the wrong way... I'm stating that this kind of stats discussion are all biased by believes of individuals. You are only fueling my statement...
And I'm not putting Contador down... If you would have read my thread you would have seen adjustment to put the calculated stats to actual database stats;
Mountains;
Valverde 83 -> 81
Rodriguez 82 -> 81
Nibali 83 -> 82
Contador 81 -> 82
Froome 81 -> 82
Peraud 80 -> 81
ten Dam 78 -> 79 (I'm dutch Smile )
This is my opinion... the only difference is that I'm not stating that other opinions are wrong (or even blasphemy :lol
So basicly you put a bunch of results together and then tweak them a bit as you please?
Seems like the same thing to me ?
If you actually didn't touch the stats you got from your program, then that would be different.
Peraud should only be 80 and closer to 79 then 81, Valverde is not a 80 MO rider anymore the way i see it. And Nibali hasn't proven against the top climbers in the world, that he deserves the same stat as them.
Through the whole spring season he got put in his place by Froome and Contador. And on stage 8 Contador beat him as well.
Ten Dam i am in doubt about. Either you give him 79 and bad support stats or 78 and good support stats i think
There is no way Ten Dam should have higher stats than Van Garderen.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| Naskela |
Posted on 24-08-2014 20:20
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Stagiare
Posts: 204
Joined: 31-05-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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Dusen wrote:
TankNL wrote:
@Dusen; you are getting this al the wrong way... I'm stating that this kind of stats discussion are all biased by believes of individuals. You are only fueling my statement...
And I'm not putting Contador down... If you would have read my thread you would have seen adjustment to put the calculated stats to actual database stats;
Mountains;
Valverde 83 -> 81
Rodriguez 82 -> 81
Nibali 83 -> 82
Contador 81 -> 82
Froome 81 -> 82
Peraud 80 -> 81
ten Dam 78 -> 79 (I'm dutch Smile )
This is my opinion... the only difference is that I'm not stating that other opinions are wrong (or even blasphemy :lol
So basicly you put a bunch of results together and then tweak them a bit as you please?
Seems like the same thing to me ?
If you actually didn't touch the stats you got from your program, then that would be different.
Peraud should only be 80 and closer to 79 then 81, Valverde is not a 80 MO rider anymore the way i see it. And Nibali hasn't proven against the top climbers in the world, that he deserves the same stat as them.
Through the whole spring season he got put in his place by Froome and Contador. And on stage 8 Contador beat him as well.
Ten Dam i am in doubt about. Either you give him 79 and bad support stats or 78 and good support stats i think
Im in no doubt if either Froome or Conta is anything near recovered from Injury you would be highly surprised after the Vuelta is over. just by giving Froome 81-82 is definitely blasphemy, seems like you judge out of results in the GTs so how come Rodriguez is 82? One year ago Froome parked Peraud who you gave same stat and that is a mild statement.
AG2R La Mondiale / Issy Paris Hand / Le Havre AC
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| dark_x2012 |
Posted on 24-08-2014 20:26
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 857
Joined: 13-05-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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TankNL wrote:
dark_x2012 wrote:
I am about to commit suicide.. How many ****** who either don't know a shit about cycling tellin Valverde is the best GC rider in the world and will probably win Giro, Tour and Vuelta next year cuz he's consistent. Or that Contador only wins when the others are in terrible shape even though he beat Valv a week before the Ardennes where Valverde was in great shape or Froome just three weeks before his main objective.
Please guys when you're either fukin biased or when everybody tells you kindly that you're not right(I understand people having diferent opinions but not having dumb opinions) don't comment more than once.
I fail to see your point... Where do you see people telling that Valverde is the best GC rider? This thread is called stats discussion... this is not discussing, but attacking others.
I exaggerated a bit but you still said he's better than Quintana, Froome and Contador a while ago 
Edit:And then I saw your last comment  sorry
I still think the three are far better than the rest but still it's better than saying they're worse
Edited by dark_x2012 on 24-08-2014 20:33
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 24-08-2014 20:33
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
Joined: 27-07-2011
PCM$: 10438.70
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Jesleyh wrote:
We've given Navardauskas ''just'' 75ACC, but we could give him 74 maybe. It's just pretty tough to get his stats right, I understand what you're saying.
Contador and Nibali are both fairly good on hills. Hills is more than just Ardennes anyway.
Pinot was a point of doubt, but has relatively bad backup stats.
True, but often GC leaders compete at the Ardennes because of it. It was the same thing for Sagan's 78 hill
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 24-08-2014 20:37
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15274
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Pinot went to 77HI in the final release, and well, it's not that weird if some of the big GC guys race the Ardennes, Nibali did it this year(wasn't his usual self obviously, but he did race it)
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 24-08-2014 20:47
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
Joined: 27-07-2011
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I mean it fluctuates. I think guys like Nibali, Rodriguez, and Valverde should be up their obviously but at the same time Quintana, Froome and Contador shouldn't be up their just to supplement their GC ambitions, just as Sagan's hill did more than supplement his status as a very strong sprinter when he won Liege 3 years running in my game.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| Naskela |
Posted on 24-08-2014 21:11
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Stagiare
Posts: 204
Joined: 31-05-2014
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baseballlover312 wrote:
I mean it fluctuates. I think guys like Nibali, Rodriguez, and Valverde should be up their obviously but at the same time Quintana, Froome and Contador shouldn't be up their just to supplement their GC ambitions, just as Sagan's hill did more than supplement his status as a very strong sprinter when he won Liege 3 years running in my game.
Well it wouldn't surprise me he is racing the Liege with his new team next year and in my mind his potential in Hill is probably just the same as with cobbles if not more. But what annoyed me with his 78 stats he had before is that he usually won races like Tirreno-Adriatico, Pais Vasco etc even with one or more light mountain stages...
Edited by Naskela on 24-08-2014 21:14
AG2R La Mondiale / Issy Paris Hand / Le Havre AC
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| TankNL |
Posted on 24-08-2014 21:13
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Domestique
Posts: 440
Joined: 19-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Naskela wrote:
Dusen wrote:
TankNL wrote:
@Dusen; you are getting this al the wrong way... I'm stating that this kind of stats discussion are all biased by believes of individuals. You are only fueling my statement...
And I'm not putting Contador down... If you would have read my thread you would have seen adjustment to put the calculated stats to actual database stats;
Mountains;
Valverde 83 -> 81
Rodriguez 82 -> 81
Nibali 83 -> 82
Contador 81 -> 82
Froome 81 -> 82
Peraud 80 -> 81
ten Dam 78 -> 79 (I'm dutch Smile )
This is my opinion... the only difference is that I'm not stating that other opinions are wrong (or even blasphemy :lol
So basicly you put a bunch of results together and then tweak them a bit as you please?
Seems like the same thing to me ?
If you actually didn't touch the stats you got from your program, then that would be different.
Peraud should only be 80 and closer to 79 then 81, Valverde is not a 80 MO rider anymore the way i see it. And Nibali hasn't proven against the top climbers in the world, that he deserves the same stat as them.
Through the whole spring season he got put in his place by Froome and Contador. And on stage 8 Contador beat him as well.
Ten Dam i am in doubt about. Either you give him 79 and bad support stats or 78 and good support stats i think
Im in no doubt if either Froome or Conta is anything near recovered from Injury you would be highly surprised after the Vuelta is over. just by giving Froome 81-82 is definitely blasphemy, seems like you judge out of results in the GTs so how come Rodriguez is 82? One year ago Froome parked Peraud who you gave same stat and that is a mild statement.
@Naskela; I am really losing track here.... who are you talking to?
All I said is that I have tried to compute (calculate) stats based on actual results... and yes the Excel of 50Mb with all the results and the calculations to come to the stats are all in there "open source" fpr anybody tp play around with.
I also stated (after discussing with a number of other members of this board) that before the stats would now be usable, that there should be some changes made in the top 10 of the stats. Like i stated in my post, I "corrected" the result of the calculation to the way I see fit. I set the max stat to 82... so;
Contador 81 -> 82
Froome 81 -> 82
This is me giving those 2 the highest stat. Along with Nibali who was 83 in the calculation.
The answer to the Rodriguez question is in the Excel file. |
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