|
Breakaways / Peloton AI - your experiences ?
|
| Ian Butler |
Posted on 28-06-2013 07:50
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 21854
Joined: 01-05-2012
PCM$: 400.00
|
Yeah. To be honest, I don't care much for the poll. What, if 1000 people would have the breakaway bug and 1001 wouldn't, would the conclusion be that majority doesn't have it so it needn't be fixed? If even only 10 people or even 1 experience heavy problems with the game, it should be fixed. |
| |
|
|
| Malkael |
Posted on 28-06-2013 09:18
|
Sprinter
Posts: 1697
Joined: 02-08-2010
PCM$: 200.00
|
Played the Porto Vecchio-Bastia stage twice on Hard back to back with two different styles of teams since the new patch. First with sprint heavy Argos-Shimano and then I went with climber heavy Movistar to see how things may differ.
Playing as Argos-Shimano using their official team for this year's race everyone expected us to control the race. Guess having Kittel and Degenkolb makes me more of a favourite then Cavendish and Greipel, and fair enough I did win the sprint. On an unrelated note, thanks to the new patch the game actually conveyed that message to me properly when observing the thoughts of the other teams.
Decided to just keep the breakaway within a reasonable distance and see whether the other sprinters teams would assist with catching the breakaway at any stage. They did start assisting, and overtook me really due to having superior flat riders attribute wise, once the AI started smelling the stage finish and a potential stage victory at roughly 60-50km to go.
Once the Peleton did catch the break with about 10km to go the sprint teams dropped off and left me in solo control of the race again. I assume they would have raced back to the front had someone tried attacking. So I just set my own pace of 60 effort in to the 3km to go mark.
Sprint trains worked swell though, with all the major sprint teams were represented at the front with their own competitive sprint trains in both stage playthroughs.
Now on to the second playthrough of the stage as Movistar with a thoroughly General Classification type of team selected. Without the burden of being expected to control the race due to the lack of a "Bookies' Favourite" for the stage I was not expected to help control the race.
The breakaway went away and built up a gap of roughly 7-8 minutes. Despite my experiences playing as Argos-Shimano prior to this Movistar playthrough it were Euskaltel, Sky, and Saxo-Tinkoff who were keeping the breakaway from growing the gap out too far. To be fair the AI has different ideas on chasing breakaways to me.
As Argos-Shimano I sent someone to the front from the start to casually keep the Peleton at a decent pace and the breakaway closer to 3-6 minutes. While the breakaway can grow at gap on the Peleton while I chase at 60 effort it is hardly a tough effort and the gap ends up closer and, apparently, easier to chase down (in this playthrough at least). Depending of coarse on the breakaway's composition, since a 77 flat in the break can achieve a higher pace against my 71 flat then a 71 or below.
The sprint teams with the favourites for the stage victory started taking over control of the front of the Peleton to bring the breakaway back at roughly 100-90km to go. They were bringing the breakaway back at a good pace up to the Intermediate Sprint, where the breakaway had roughly 1'30"-2'00" on the Peleton.
For some reason after contesting the Intermediate Sprint the sprint teams decided to knock off chasing let the gap grow back out again. So back to the front came the General Classification teams of Sky, Euskaltel, and Saxo-Tinkoff. The gap grew out again for a bit until the sprint teams remembered there was a sprint finish on today and the gap was approaching 4 minutes at 40km to go.
So the sprint teams came back to the front and started cutting down the breakaway's time gap again. With the time the sprint teams spent stuffing around after the Intermediate Sprint the Peleton took until near on 3km to go to rope the breakaway in. The lead-out trains of the sprinters caught the breakaway at specifically 3.2km to go.
Just going off instinct I think the Peleton would have easily caught the breakaway with about 17-12km to go had they kept the chase up straight after the Intermediate Sprint point. The sprinters and Peleton took out all the decent placings for the stage. However, they were perhaps, I can only assume, lucky no one had the legs to attack\sprint off the front of the breakaway to victory ahead of the sprinters and Peleton.
Edited by Malkael on 28-06-2013 09:29
|
| |
|
|
| Ian Butler |
Posted on 28-06-2013 09:48
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 21854
Joined: 01-05-2012
PCM$: 400.00
|
I've noticed this, too. The peloton chases for the intermediate sprint, but after that they lower the pace. |
| |
|
|
| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 28-06-2013 10:18
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
|
To be fair you can only start to draw reasonable conclusions about this after 50+ tests conducted under strict conditions.
I guess this would work different on hills or flat or in a stage race etc. So you would have to do at least 10 tests on the same stage of each terrain (10 in hilly classic, flat classic, cobbled classic, mountain classic, hilly stage, flat stage, cobbled stage and mountain stage).
5 of those would be with you as a "favorite" aiding to a normal extent with the chase, and 5 with you as no favorite at all, not aiding in any way to the chase.
You would need the same set startlist for each run as well, and same fitness etc. Wind is harder to control but preferable keeping that the same as well.
|
| |
|
|
| Jesleyh |
Posted on 28-06-2013 10:22
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15274
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
|
TheManxMissile wrote:
To be fair you can only start to draw reasonable conclusions about this after 50+ tests conducted under strict conditions.
I guess this would work different on hills or flat or in a stage race etc. So you would have to do at least 10 tests on the same stage of each terrain (10 in hilly classic, flat classic, cobbled classic, mountain classic, hilly stage, flat stage, cobbled stage and mountain stage).
5 of those would be with you as a "favorite" aiding to a normal extent with the chase, and 5 with you as no favorite at all, not aiding in any way to the chase.
You would need the same set startlist for each run as well, and same fitness etc. Wind is harder to control but preferable keeping that the same as well.
Yeah, where are your 'tests' you were advertising before PCM 2013 came out? 
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
|
| |
|
|
| Malkael |
Posted on 28-06-2013 11:25
|
Sprinter
Posts: 1697
Joined: 02-08-2010
PCM$: 200.00
|
Oh definitely, and I was attempting that for patch 1.0.1.1 at the time. Haven't had as much time with patch 1.0.2.0 so only had time to do some initial impressions so far.
There is a metric ton of variables to account for, of which some cannot be eliminated if you want to involve the AI. Then everything has to be repeated under the same conditions.
At the same time this is rather broad topic which can be split in to several different parts. Is the breakaway too hard for human players to chase down? Is the breakaway too hard for the AI teams to chase down? What stages are they too hard to chase down on? Should the breakaway be winning in that specific scenario at a low, 50-50, or high success rate? The list goes on and on.
The "fun" never stops, especially when new changes are introduced in patches. |
| |
|
|
| Popeye |
Posted on 28-06-2013 12:33
|
Under 23
Posts: 77
Joined: 03-07-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
My 10 cents.
As many have noted this is a very difficult thing to be scientific about. And much of a players 'enjoyment' of the game is down to how it mimics his particular management/strategy style.
With that in mind, it is difficult to find a 'one size fits all solution'.
For a long time,therefore, I have felt that there should be something in the configuration that allows a degree of personalisation of the AI.
eg.
Peloton aggressiveness 1-10
Breakaway frequency 1-10
etc,etc |
| |
|
|
| stealingsilver |
Posted on 03-07-2013 14:26
|
Free Agent
Posts: 113
Joined: 08-02-2013
PCM$: 200.00
|
I find that if I have the yellow jersey and am not relaying at the front that the Peloton can quickly get up to 20 minutes behind the breakaway. Sometimes they even do less than 10km/h on flat parts.
It soon gets too hard to chase them down and as I am going for yellow rather than Green there is no point in me chasing in flat stages which leads to a 5-10 minute Breakaway win. |
| |
|
|
| Ian Butler |
Posted on 03-07-2013 14:28
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 21854
Joined: 01-05-2012
PCM$: 400.00
|
To be honest, that's realistic. Yellow Jersey always has to ride. |
| |
|
|
| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 03-07-2013 14:31
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
Joined: 27-07-2011
PCM$: 10438.70
|
I haven't had any problems except one that has happened a few times. Breakaway gets pulled back to one minute, then rides the last 20 km with that.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
| |
|
|
| Ad Bot |
Posted on 27-11-2024 15:31
|
Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
|
|
| IP: None |
|
|
| Ian Butler |
Posted on 03-07-2013 14:33
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 21854
Joined: 01-05-2012
PCM$: 400.00
|
I haven't had any big problems since the patch. I do have the same problem as bbl once in a while. Mostly one jumps away then and makes it, rest of BOTD gets caught by the sprinting peloton who sprint for 2nd place. In a 10 day tour with 8 sprint stages I had 5/8 mass sprints, 3 times break/solo. I guess that's fine, since it's on a lower level (Malaysia) |
| |
|
|
| stealingsilver |
Posted on 03-07-2013 14:39
|
Free Agent
Posts: 113
Joined: 08-02-2013
PCM$: 200.00
|
Ian Butler wrote:
To be honest, that's realistic. Yellow Jersey always has to ride.
In a way I agree, but on the GTs when the stage is flat I do not mind losing 10 minutes to a guy in the breakaway that is 40 minutes down on my Yellow Jersey.
I would have thought that the teams with good sprinters would want to chase the breakaway down but they do not seem to be interested until it is too late. |
| |
|
|
| Ian Butler |
Posted on 03-07-2013 17:19
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 21854
Joined: 01-05-2012
PCM$: 400.00
|
That's also true... |
| |
|
|
| Malkael |
Posted on 03-07-2013 17:51
|
Sprinter
Posts: 1697
Joined: 02-08-2010
PCM$: 200.00
|
I would agree with that opinion Stealingsilver. Personally I feel like the sprint teams could or should begin chasing the breakaway sooner on stages where they are the favourites. It is not like the AI teams cannot chase the breakaway down at all, since they can easily do it within 20-10km to go, if I keep the gap at a smaller difference than they do.
So in my opinion either the AI sprint teams need to begin chasing earlier to account for the large time gaps they give the breakaway. Or alternatively they need to not let the gaps blow out quite so far in the first place. |
| |
|
|
| R_Funk |
Posted on 03-07-2013 20:53
|
Stagiare
Posts: 186
Joined: 12-07-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
I don't know if it's already mentioned but:
Just had a race in Oman with Omega-Pharma. And Cavendish is leader in the ranking. Just to be smart (i thought) i put one of the teammates in de BOTD. (Vandewalle). The peleton never rides to catch them and the Breakaway gains 18 min. time without any help of my rider (because Cavendish is the leader).
In the end they still managed to get back 6 min. or so. But the break wins the race and Vandewalle the jersey of his teammate.
A similar situation i had with Movistar and Castroviejo.
Normally i don't have a problem with the breakaways. But this looks as a definite bug to me. Hopefully the will solve this in the next patch. (when a teammate of the raceleader is in the break, another team takes over.)
|
| |
|
|
| Ramira |
Posted on 04-07-2013 06:25
|
Amateur
Posts: 16
Joined: 14-03-2008
PCM$: 200.00
|
stealingsilver wrote:
Ian Butler wrote:
To be honest, that's realistic. Yellow Jersey always has to ride.
In a way I agree, but on the GTs when the stage is flat I do not mind losing 10 minutes to a guy in the breakaway that is 40 minutes down on my Yellow Jersey.
I would have thought that the teams with good sprinters would want to chase the breakaway down but they do not seem to be interested until it is too late.
I just found pretty much the same thing. Having the top 2 in the tour of Lankawi (which only has 6 riders, increasing the problem) no team was remotely willing to help out (if I set no-one to take a relay no-one does, not even at a minimal pace) meaning there is no chance for me to catch the leaders.
Even worse then that, when I tried to preemt this issue (like I did before) by sending one of my riders up front no-one in the breakaway was willing to ride, with them all sitting in his wheel even at 20 effort.
Basically it seems to me that if the player has the yellow jersey no-one will ride with them under any circumstances, seriously braking the game once you take the GC lead.
Edit: It seems it has something to do with the size of the lead. In the instance above I had a 4 minute lead on the nearest competitor and the field had pretty much been blown apart. It seems if the lead is small (so others are still in the GC race) it's ok but when gaps get big issues arise.
To those people experiencing that the lead of breakaway groups not decreasing over the last 20k, this is because riders are now saving energy and upping the pace late in the race. When I have a rider in the break the pace needed to take relays quickly goes up from 50 to about 80 when getting to the final of the race.
Edited by Ramira on 04-07-2013 07:02
|
| |
|
|
| diacos |
Posted on 04-07-2013 08:34
|
Under 23
Posts: 56
Joined: 09-08-2011
PCM$: 200.00
|
In my game, breakaways are ok. The peloton catch them at 15k to go usually. My problem is other one. When i make a sprint train, no other team makes one.They just take my wheel or stay around my lead-out man. When i don't make a sprint train and i take others wheel, there are like 2 or 3 trains. Is this only on my game, or do you have the same problem? |
| |
|
|
| roturn |
Posted on 04-07-2013 08:38
|
Team Manager
Posts: 22246
Joined: 24-11-2007
PCM$: 3900.00
|
Is your sprinter the strongest?
This might be the reason, why other sprinters prefer to take your wheel then.
|
| |
|
|
| diacos |
Posted on 04-07-2013 09:06
|
Under 23
Posts: 56
Joined: 09-08-2011
PCM$: 200.00
|
I play with Cav usually, so yes. But that's still not realistic. |
| |
|
|
| Jesleyh |
Posted on 04-07-2013 09:11
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15274
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
|
Well, they expect you to make a sprint train then. Which is obviously a smart thing to do if you have the strongest sprinter
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
|
| |
|
![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
