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Tour de France, Stage 16 - Wednesday, Pau - Bagnères-de-Luchon
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| fickman |
Posted on 17-07-2012 14:18
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This Year should be a King of the Time Trial jersey KOTT rather than a KOM jersey.  |
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| ShortsNL |
Posted on 17-07-2012 14:24
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kumazan wrote:
The solution for this is pretty simple, the KoM should give more UCI points than a 4th place in GC. DO that, and you won't see average climbers like Roche, Zubeldia et al hanging on for dear life just to get a lame 9th place in GC.
That's one good way to fix it. |
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| Kirchen_75 |
Posted on 17-07-2012 17:00
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Grand Tour Champion
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One Word for this stage: Nibbles
Can't wait  |
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| fcancellara |
Posted on 17-07-2012 17:02
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Nibali will win the stage with a +30 sec gap!
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| 9-Ball |
Posted on 17-07-2012 17:13
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Domestique
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There's a long running trend toward framing the KOTM points schedule so that the best climbers don't win it, in my view. Too many points on smaller incidental climbs. Look at this list:
1992 Italy Claudio Chiappucci (ITA) Carrera Jeans-Vagabond
1993 Switzerland Tony Rominger (SUI) CLAS-Cajastur
1994 France Richard Virenque (FRA) Festina-Lotus
1995 France Richard Virenque (FRA) Festina-Lotus
1996 France Richard Virenque (FRA) Festina-Lotus
1997 France Richard Virenque (FRA) Festina-Lotus
1998 France Christophe Rinero (FRA) Cofidis
1999 France Richard Virenque (FRA) Team Polti
2000 Colombia Santiago Botero (COL) Kelme-Costa Blanca
2001 France Laurent Jalabert (FRA) CSC-Tiscali
2002 France Laurent Jalabert (FRA) CSC-Tiscali
2003 France Richard Virenque (FRA) Quick Step-Davitamon
2004 France Richard Virenque (FRA) Quick Step-Davitamon
2005 Denmark Michael Rasmussen (DEN) Rabobank
2006 Denmark Michael Rasmussen (DEN) Rabobank
2007 Colombia Mauricio Soler (COL) Barloworld
2008 Austria Bernhard Kohl[Notes 1] (AUT) Gerolsteiner
2009 Italy Franco Pellizotti[Notes 2] (ITA) Liquigas
2010 France Anthony Charteau (FRA) Bbox Bouygues Telecom
2011 Spain Samuel Sánchez (ESP) Euskaltel-Euskadi
It would appear for at least the last 5 years the winner is hardly the best recognized climber in the field. Ignoring the disqualifications of 2008 and 2009. You have to go back quite a way to get a reliable result in this competition and even then it's debatable in some years. The KOTM competition ceased being anything of much value, in my view. Unless they reframe the points schedules.
It was eleven more than necessary.
Jacques Anquetil
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 17-07-2012 17:14
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Tour de France Champion
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They just redid the points schedule for that exact reason 
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 17-07-2012 17:19
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Tour de France Champion
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Indeed. Sánchez last year already won with the new scheme.
Before that only Rominger, Virenque in 97 and maybe (MAYBE!) Chiapucci in 92 were really the top climber.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| Kirchen_75 |
Posted on 17-07-2012 17:20
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Kohl and Pelizotti doped so they dont count. Who was 2nd back then?
Edited by Kirchen_75 on 17-07-2012 17:21
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| mb2612 |
Posted on 17-07-2012 17:28
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Team Leader
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I feel very comfortable claiming Sanchez was the best climber in 11. He won the first climb. Then beat everyone bar one on the other two big stages. He would have won both had a strong climber been allowed clear early. Bar letting go on the galibier he was comfortably three best
 [url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
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| kumazan |
Posted on 17-07-2012 17:29
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issoisso wrote:
Indeed. Sánchez last year already won with the new scheme.
Before that only Rominger, Virenque in 97 and maybe (MAYBE!) Chiapucci in 92 were really the top climber.
The point isn't having THE top climber as KoM, but having a decent climber winning it, not a random Anthony Charteau.
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| Guido Mukk |
Posted on 17-07-2012 17:53
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Well Sagan would win it/lead it even when it would be only about stage finishes and examples from the past few years points this competition is okay as it is, with best sprinters winning it (not only these who can sprint on the pan flat, some climbing ability is needed just to ride to Paris and grab points also in the sprints in hilly stages).
This is my friend is matter of taste. This year Sagan yes..because sprinters field seems to be little unstable. And there has been not real dominant sprinter. Sagan has been more stabie.
But generaly I always prefer when best flat-mass sprinter will also wear a green ..like Zabel, Cavendish, McEwen, Petacchi, Cippolini |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 25-11-2024 07:48
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| Ybodonk |
Posted on 17-07-2012 18:07
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Domestique
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Let me clear a couple of things.
First. Rolland is up there in top 5 of the very elite climbers in the world. The start of this tour was messed up because 2-3 crashes, thats why he was a bit weak in the first couple of mountains. Furthermore Rolland has now two year in a rowe won the biggest and most prestigious mountain stage - what an unbelievable achievement. The Alpe D'Huez stage last year he won, was after leading for 2.5 weeks in the mountains for the yellow jersey, Voeckler. And he did beat the best climbers in the world, Contador, S.Sanchez, the Schlecks etc.
Wiggins and co. is what i call second-ranked climbers. When the real elite will be back, and they will be back at their best. Then Rolland is one of the few who would riding with them.
Secondly the stage this year, was yet again amazing, to attack so early and still finish it. That demands a real world class climber. If Rolland would have been sitting and waiting with the other favourites, he would problably have won anyway, since he was the strongest that day. So the say that Rolland aint good enough for the KoM is some of the dumbest thing ever.
Thirdly the people who actually thinks and believe wiggins when he said : " I was attacking because of jerome coppel". These people are either naive, dumb or doesnt know much about cycling and having been following the Tour and the bigger picture.
Wiggins did attack at the first possibility he had, after the Froome incident which was the day before. It was a mark of i am the yellow jersey and the captain of team sky. And if this logic doesnt apply to you guys, then the next i will state is a fact ;
Van Den Broeck have attacked 10 times in total, WITHOUT reaction from Wiggins himself.
Evans has attacked 2 times without reaction from Wiggins.
Nibali has attacked 5 times without reaction from Wiggins.
The only reaction was an increase in the speed from his team riders - Porte,Rogers and Froome. Not a personal reaction from the man himself. Why ?
Because he doesnt really care - he is not afraid of any of these guys that is the reality that is why he let them attack.
Pinot who is way ahead of Coppel has attacked 10 times without any reaction, because they dont care. He aint no real threath in the GC
Conclusion is :
So to say that he will not let Rolland attack tomorrow is naive and dumb
Edited by Ybodonk on 17-07-2012 18:12
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 17-07-2012 18:59
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Many many times, the best actual climber who made it to Paris was also the final winner, or at worst a podium finisher.
Even in 1997, from memory, Virenque didn't gain any time on Ullrich in the mountains, only Pantani did.
What still amazes me is that, with modern technology, UCI/ASO/Whoever can't even have a proper telemetry working. There's often confusion about who is escaped in what group (whereas every year at the World Championship it's crystal clear who is where). With that system they could certainly meter the time it takes for every rider to climb every mountain or hill, and award points fairly.
But maybe that'd be dangerous data, for other reasons ?  |
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| Guido Mukk |
Posted on 17-07-2012 19:50
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Tour de France Champion
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I would like to see when they drop race radios.
Only to see when Froome will notice to slow down and wait Wiggins. or he wont even stop |
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| Welwyn |
Posted on 18-07-2012 00:19
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Simple fact of the matter for the rest of this tour is that there are only two guys with the strength to catch Wiggins on time in the next two days, let alone pull out a lead that would survive the Time-Trial.
Those two are Nibali and VdB.
Problem is, to break Wiggins, you have to break every single Sky rider. In order to do that, you have to use every team member you have to stand any chance. Half of Liquigas have been helping Sagan, half of Lotto have been helping Griepel. Whereas, not only has nobody been helping Cavendish, Cav is helping Wiggins. |
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| blueye |
Posted on 18-07-2012 06:00
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Under 23
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if Schleck is retired from this TDF how much will affect RSN in team standings? Considering some good bets on team sky for the overall team classification. |
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| cio93 |
Posted on 18-07-2012 06:16
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World Champion
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blueye wrote:
if Schleck is retired from this TDF how much will affect RSN in team standings? Considering some good bets on team sky for the overall team classification.
Not worth it at all.
In the unlikely case of having Schleck removed of all stage results, they loose only 2:09 of their advantage, still more than 10 minutes in front of Sky.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 18-07-2012 06:37
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Guido Mukk wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Well Sagan would win it/lead it even when it would be only about stage finishes and examples from the past few years points this competition is okay as it is, with best sprinters winning it (not only these who can sprint on the pan flat, some climbing ability is needed just to ride to Paris and grab points also in the sprints in hilly stages).
This is my friend is matter of taste. This year Sagan yes..because sprinters field seems to be little unstable. And there has been not real dominant sprinter. Sagan has been more stabie.
But generaly I always prefer when best flat-mass sprinter will also wear a green ..like Zabel, Cavendish, McEwen, Petacchi, Cippolini
Yeah, it is matter of preferences but you Guido are still frozen on fact Sagan is not a top sprinter, i wonder if you saw stage 6 when he has beaten the absolute top of the cream sprinters Greipel and Goss and he challenged them hard in every other flat sprint stage,two times Greipel has won ony by decimetres and "best sprinter on the world" Cav was nowhere to be seen...because he does not have 6 people to drag him through the stage 
And about the names you mentioned, it is not like they were denied to grab points somewhere else than pan flat, they were just one dimensional and not able to do it. Fun fact is that Cavendish won last year with 334 points in Paris, Peter has 356 after stage 16. 
And in the end it is called points jersey, not sprinters jersey. Was Merckx undeserved winner of point jersey because he was not the fastest sprinter on the flat?
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 18-07-2012 06:39
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| blueye |
Posted on 18-07-2012 07:05
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Under 23
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cio93 wrote:
blueye wrote:
if Schleck is retired from this TDF how much will affect RSN in team standings? Considering some good bets on team sky for the overall team classification.
Not worth it at all.
In the unlikely case of having Schleck removed of all stage results, they loose only 2:09 of their advantage, still more than 10 minutes in front of Sky.
thanks for the info. |
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| Speedtrash |
Posted on 18-07-2012 08:14
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if Nibali and co. want to gain something, they definitely need to do some damage allready on Tourmalet, isolate Wiggins and Froome...Aspin isnt steep enough, Peyresourde ist enough long, even if Wiggo will strugglem he will not loose more than 1-1:30min
but I doubt that something will hapen, they will just look around and wait for final climb |
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