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De Ronde van Vlaanderen 2015
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| CountArach |
Posted on 07-04-2015 08:55
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Also I love that the Norwegian nationalists are out again! It has been too long since the 2011 TDF!
TOUR DE NORGE!
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 07-04-2015 09:10
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CountArach wrote:
Also I love that the Norwegian nationalists are out again! It has been too long since the 2011 TDF!
TOUR DE NORGE!
Yeah, time to brace ourselves, first Hushovd, then EBH and now Kristoff (at least someone actually great). 
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| Guido Mukk |
Posted on 07-04-2015 09:11
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Avin hush..you should not talk about this subject. You can not be objective in this one..not even close.
Do not mock Kristoff about green jerseys..he has no chance against Sagan? Really?
Kristoff is not marked man in peloton? Really?
Sagan has great team around him..at least on paper. But at the end there is always BMC and Ettix show at classics ..I do not know why?
Sagan was really dominant at really young age. He had won many classics already if he had Kristoff ride sense. But he was usually forced to work alone. Do not worry he is still very young ..many good years a head. And look Vanmarcke results this year..how that strong man can always finish that far back? |
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| trekbmc |
Posted on 07-04-2015 09:16
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Guido Mukk wrote:
Avin hush..you should not talk about this subject. You can not be objective in this one..not even close.
Do not mock Kristoff about green jerseys..he has no chance against Sagan? Really?
Kristoff is not marked man in peloton? Really?
Sagan has great team around him..at least on paper.
it just occurred to me, Tinkoff is supporting Contador, so will Sagan have any support in the tour?
Edited by trekbmc on 07-04-2015 09:18
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 07-04-2015 09:22
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Guido Mukk wrote:
Avin hush..you should not talk about this subject. You can not be objective in this one..not even close.
Do not mock Kristoff about green jerseys..he has no chance against Sagan? Really?
Kristoff is not marked man in peloton? Really?
Sagan has great team around him..at least on paper. But at the end there is always BMC and Ettix show at classics ..I do not know why?
Sagan was really dominant at really young age. He had won many classics already if he had Kristoff ride sense. But he was usually forced to work alone. Do not worry he is still very young ..many good years a head. And look Vanmarcke results this year..how that strong man can always finish that far back?
I am not sure if you understood well Guido, i tried to be very objective in my posts about that matter, i know it was not my strong side in the past.
Nobody, not even Kristoff HAD (past tense) a chance against Sagan with old point jersey rules. I use past tense and 150+ point advantage really show it as the fact, not just my imagination (2013 advantage was even bigger). This year, i am the first to call that Sagan will not win the green, because rules were changed especially to not let Sagan win it 4 years in the row with help of his mountain stages attacks...
Kristoff was not marked as much as Sagan till 2015 classics campaign, because nobody knew how good on cobbles he really is, while Sagan was marked in every meter. Now it is of course changing and Kristoff will be the biggest hunting target. I never said Kristoff was unmarked, just that he was not the biggest "target". Fact that he was allowed to go in De ronde with Terpstra show it somehow.
Not sure to which team of Sagan you reffer to great on paper. Cannondale was tragical with this in classics, now Saxo is better on paper, but reality is again different so far. And i agree that Kristoff is much smarter tactic than Sagan and i already said that few posts ago. 
And i still have hope for Peter, dont worry. 
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 07-04-2015 09:24
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| Atlantius |
Posted on 07-04-2015 09:50
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Well the rule change in the Tour should rather be considered as going back to the original rule after having changed the rule to favor a rider like Sagan. They wanted a more open competition but got the opposite.
Changing back is hardly acting against Sagan in the way your post suggest. It was en experiment that didn't work so now they abandon it and go back to the traditional system.
Seeing how the points competition last year was raced on the road those 150 points mean absolutely nothing. Noone bothered about teh intermediates. Noone bothered trying to pick up small points at the finish when the top results was gone.
Also I have to say I find it massively amusing that you refer to Kristoff being on Katusha as making him dodgy compared to Sagan, whose teams should really be put in the same category as Katusha
Personally I can't see the weird in a rider reaching peak at 26-27 years rather than 21 years. That used to be when you expected someone to peak due to needing time to build physique and race smartness.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 07-04-2015 10:28
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Atlantius wrote:
Changing back is hardly acting against Sagan in the way your post suggest. It was en experiment that didn't work so now they abandon it and go back to the traditional system.
Okay, it is just me, the fanboy view. Oh wait, Velonews has to be bunch of fanboys too:
Spoiler "In another significant change, the Tour has reshuffled the points competition in what could be viewed as the “anti-Sagan” rule change. Like time bonuses, the new points rules will apply to the first nine stages only.
In 2014, Sagan won his third consecutive points jersey without winning a stage. By consistently placing in the top-5, Sagan picked up points to coast relatively unchallenged into his third green jersey. Under new rules introduced for 2015, that feat could prove more difficult, with a new rule structure favoring stage winners."
Read more at https://velonews.c...Wgm0AOx.99
It is funny how people tend to make an impression that Sagan won the three jerseys just because nobody else cared about it, especially the mighty Kristoff 
Yeah, 150points is nothing from base of 431 points, just more then third of it. You know why nobody cared in second and third week? Because Sagan has already won it with top5s in first seven stages. that was the point where all other sprinters gave up and concentrated themselves on stage finishes. But till that time, we could see a couple of guys trying to snatch bonus points in the intermediates, because they cared at the first place....
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| Atlantius |
Posted on 07-04-2015 10:50
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I didn't say the gap would be easy to close, but the fact is that before the Tour only one big rider said he cared about the green jersey and that gave a pretty fast decision as to who would win it.
When the pionts system used the last three years it was an anti-Cavendish rule. Call it what you will but it's not personal against Sagan. The ASO just doesn't want a dominant rider in the battle for green. In 2011 Cav was too dominant so they changed it, now Sagan is too dominant so they change it. The same would have happened had it been anyone else.
I for one thought the change would be good, but last year the green jersey was hardly contested so I'm happy they change it back as the gaps generally were smaller with the old system. Also remember that Hushovd have actualyl won green based on mountain attacks in the old day so no reason to consider Sagan unique in that matter either . Or for that matter say that he has no chance due to the rule change since he just has to go at it the same way Hushovd did
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| jsh312mufc |
Posted on 07-04-2015 10:56
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Atlantius wrote:
When the pionts system used the last three years it was an anti-Cavendish rule. Call it what you will but it's not personal against Sagan. The ASO just doesn't want a dominant rider in the battle for green. In 2011 Cav was too dominant so they changed it, now Sagan is too dominant so they change it. The same would have happened had it been anyone else.
No, the rules were the same 2011 to 2014. The rules were changed to that system so that Cavendish could win |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 25-11-2024 01:32
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| Shonak |
Posted on 07-04-2015 10:59
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trekbmc wrote:
Guido Mukk wrote:
Avin hush..you should not talk about this subject. You can not be objective in this one..not even close.
Do not mock Kristoff about green jerseys..he has no chance against Sagan? Really?
Kristoff is not marked man in peloton? Really?
Sagan has great team around him..at least on paper.
it just occurred to me, Tinkoff is supporting Contador, so will Sagan have any support in the tour?
People are discussing that since before they announced the signing of Sagan, we''ll only find out how it works once the tour is on. Sagan can be actually quite some assistance to Contador and still get a stage win out of it.
I think Sagan was better at Ronde than I thought and he rode both very well and smart. Just curious to see him at rvv not able to contest a sprint. he obv lacks smthg this season.
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| Stromeon |
Posted on 07-04-2015 11:22
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3507
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trekbmc wrote:
Guido Mukk wrote:
Avin hush..you should not talk about this subject. You can not be objective in this one..not even close.
Do not mock Kristoff about green jerseys..he has no chance against Sagan? Really?
Kristoff is not marked man in peloton? Really?
Sagan has great team around him..at least on paper.
it just occurred to me, Tinkoff is supporting Contador, so will Sagan have any support in the tour?
It shouldn't be too hard for Tinkoff to organise a team that supports both - obviously Sagan is not going to have the full undivided attention of the team, but Contador doesn't need 8 mountain domestiques. Looking at the rumoured team on PCS: Contador, Sagan, Paulinho, Rogers, Majka, Kiserlovski, Bennati and Bodnar plus another rider it looks decent, Bodnar was one of the few domestiques on Cannondale who was actually good support for Sagan, and Bennati is an excellent domestique and would fit well into a supporting Sagan role. Ideally for Sagan they would probably have Tosatto on the team, but he is doing Giro iirc so he might not do the Tour, although he has been doing two GTs a year since the time the dinosaurs roamed the planet. Sagan might also benefit from the climbing prowess of the Tinkoff squad which may come in handy for him in the hilly stages, so I think he's probably better equipped team-wise than he was last year.
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| trekbmc |
Posted on 07-04-2015 11:51
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Stromeon wrote:
trekbmc wrote:
Guido Mukk wrote:
Avin hush..you should not talk about this subject. You can not be objective in this one..not even close.
Do not mock Kristoff about green jerseys..he has no chance against Sagan? Really?
Kristoff is not marked man in peloton? Really?
Sagan has great team around him..at least on paper.
it just occurred to me, Tinkoff is supporting Contador, so will Sagan have any support in the tour?
It shouldn't be too hard for Tinkoff to organise a team that supports both - obviously Sagan is not going to have the full undivided attention of the team, but Contador doesn't need 8 mountain domestiques. Looking at the rumoured team on PCS: Contador, Sagan, Paulinho, Rogers, Majka, Kiserlovski, Bennati and Bodnar plus another rider it looks decent, Bodnar was one of the few domestiques on Cannondale who was actually good support for Sagan, and Bennati is an excellent domestique and would fit well into a supporting Sagan role. Ideally for Sagan they would probably have Tosatto on the team, but he is doing Giro iirc so he might not do the Tour, although he has been doing two GTs a year since the time the dinosaurs roamed the planet. Sagan might also benefit from the climbing prowess of the Tinkoff squad which may come in handy for him in the hilly stages, so I think he's probably better equipped team-wise than he was last year.
Yeah, ok thanks, I suppose he would have less riders behind him than last year, but better riders. I didn't know that they had signed Bodnar and I guess Bennati (and Tosatto) usually can help Contador like they normally do, while being good for Sagan. Thanks for the explanation though. |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 07-04-2015 12:19
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Atlantius wrote:
I didn't say the gap would be easy to close, but the fact is that before the Tour only one big rider said he cared about the green jersey and that gave a pretty fast decision as to who would win it.
When the pionts system used the last three years it was an anti-Cavendish rule. Call it what you will but it's not personal against Sagan. The ASO just doesn't want a dominant rider in the battle for green. In 2011 Cav was too dominant so they changed it, now Sagan is too dominant so they change it. The same would have happened had it been anyone else.
I for one thought the change would be good, but last year the green jersey was hardly contested so I'm happy they change it back as the gaps generally were smaller with the old system. Also remember that Hushovd have actualyl won green based on mountain attacks in the old day so no reason to consider Sagan unique in that matter either . Or for that matter say that he has no chance due to the rule change since he just has to go at it the same way Hushovd did
You probably misunderstood what i was trying to say mate. I dont think they are changing it because the hate Sagan or whatever, that would be stupid really. But because one rider (named Peter Sagan) is dominating the competiton in style , that make everybody else not caring much about it. But they dont care because they know he will win it and that was my point, not because they dont want green jersey, like somebody here suggested about Kristoff.
So we both seem to agree that they change it to make it less boring and challenged by more riders. But where we differ is that you like the latest change. I dont like it, but not because my favourite rider will have less chance, but because i think that those who were dominated by him should try harder, not wait until ASO changed the rule to their benefit.
I hope it is more clear now.
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 07-04-2015 12:32
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| Kirchen_75 |
Posted on 07-04-2015 12:19
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oh the cheap 'no team support' excuses...
Let me look at last 2 Ronde's.
2014, Cancellara almost whole Trek team crashes out. Cancellara completely isolated for 50 km's. Wins.
2015, Kristoff's only good classics domestique Paolini gets left behind about 60 kms from the finish. Kristoff still wins.
If youre strong enough and good enough you dont need team to win it, it may help you but its not vital. Period. |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 07-04-2015 12:31
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Kirchen_75 wrote:
oh the cheap 'no team support' excuses...
Let me look at last 2 Ronde's.
2014, Cancellara almost whole Trek team crashes out. Cancellara completely isolated for 50 km's. Wins.
2015, Kristoff's only good classics domestique Paolini gets left behind about 60 kms from the finish. Kristoff still wins.
If youre strong enough and good enough you dont need team to win it, it may help you but its not vital. Period.
I agree completely, there is someone who does not?
In the end Sagan did win lot of races when being isolated in the leading group, but even more lost with dumb tactics when being supported well.
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| Atlantius |
Posted on 07-04-2015 12:51
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
So we both seem to agree that they change it to make it less boring and challenged by more riders. But where we differ is that you like the latest change. I dont like it, but not because my favourite rider will have less chance, but because i think that those who were dominated by him should try harder, not wait until ASO changed the rule to their benefit.
I hope it is more clear now.
Thanks for the clarification. The main difference between us I think is what we consider status quo for the points competition. IMO the last three years have been what differs and it didn't create better racing for green - rather the opposite really - so I think it's only natural that they go back to something more like the old system. Then Peter should just try harder if he wants to win it again
My main point is that the competition was generally much more open before the rule change than it was these last three years. I much prefer a competition than can be won by many different types of sprinter rather than a competition favouring one rider as massively as this one.
Anyway that discussion is really for another thread so let's get back to it when the new system starts playing out in July...
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| cio93 |
Posted on 07-04-2015 12:58
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Hey Avin, which forum legend are you going to make disappear from this site forever this week?
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 07-04-2015 13:01
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cio93 wrote:
Hey Avin, which forum legend are you going to make disappear from this site forever this week?
Pff, there are some legends left? I thought i managed to get rid all of these basterds and replaced them.
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| Shonak |
Posted on 07-04-2015 13:20
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10 conclusions from De Ronde. Worth the read.
https://www.cyclin...flanders-2
Also, Winners & Losers of 99th Ronde
https://velonews.c...ren_365648
Edited by Shonak on 07-04-2015 13:21
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
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| Guido Mukk |
Posted on 07-04-2015 13:27
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Atlantius wrote:
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
So we both seem to agree that they change it to make it less boring and challenged by more riders. But where we differ is that you like the latest change. I dont like it, but not because my favourite rider will have less chance, but because i think that those who were dominated by him should try harder, not wait until ASO changed the rule to their benefit.
I hope it is more clear now.
Thanks for the clarification. The main difference between us I think is what we consider status quo for the points competition. IMO the last three years have been what differs and it didn't create better racing for green - rather the opposite really - so I think it's only natural that they go back to something more like the old system. Then Peter should just try harder if he wants to win it again
My main point is that the competition was generally much more open before the rule change than it was these last three years. I much prefer a competition than can be won by many different types of sprinter rather than a competition favouring one rider as massively as this one.
Anyway that discussion is really for another thread so let's get back to it when the new system starts playing out in July...
this is just matter of taste. but i do like the old system...best sprinter should get a green. ( hated when Thor got he's with that protest) yep sagan deserved it 3 years a row. but isn't that weird that guy who did not win any stage secured that green with that hugh margin?
In Giro points jersey can be for climber also. but at TdF best sprinter should wear it. |
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