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TdF'13 Stage 21 - Versailles to Paris (July 21)
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| ShortsNL |
Posted on 22-07-2013 09:06
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Isso and Aquarius, it's ironic what you're doing because the exact same argument is used by mr. Brailsford to show that Froome isn't doping.
You're pointing out that the data is not a valid way to compare riders due to false flat being in there, hence why Froome is supposedly abnormally faster on the climb, even though this data might suggest otherwise.
Brailsford states the data is not a valid way to compare riders due to all kinds of variables, including wind, hence why Froome's data can't be compared like this in the first place.
I hate to support Brailsford but it looks like you're spinning the argument.
You're selectively criticizing the validity of the data when it is in your favour, yet disregarding other criticism when it isn't in your favour. |
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| doddy13 |
Posted on 22-07-2013 09:23
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Grand Tour Champion
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Pellizotti2 wrote:
cio93 wrote:
What happened to the CN forum by the way?
Not accessible for me since yesterday.
They're updating the server or something like that, iirc
In their peak period? That's quite moronic.
There's no point slapping a schleck - Sean Kelly on "Who needs a slap"
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 22-07-2013 09:40
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World Champion
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Stromeon wrote:
And so the 100th edition of the Tour de France concludes, and I must say, it's been a great edition. We've had pretty much everything you can get (apart from positive tests): a few great mountain stages, close sprints, the emergence of Kittel and Quintana as future world-beaters, the inevitable crashes, great scenery, novelty, tradition, history, a great route, controversy, an exciting flat stage, a French win on Alpe d'Huez, etc the list goes on...
Oh and some mutant braking round the corners up Mont Ventoux, but no one really cares about him/it 
No doubt we'll go back to a shitty route/boring tour next year though.
I still miss 290kms long stage with 50kms of cobbles, to make the Tour complete package. But i agree, this edition was worth the anniversary, i enjoyed it a lot, despite Froome domination.
Of course second green jersey of my favourite rider and 5th place of my second favourite one is topping it. If Sagan goes for the green every year, cant see anyone beating him. But i think he will look for more new challenges. Also great that he won despite the route being almost the worse imaginable for his style.
Kreuziger is going up in my eyes, he did his job to protect Alberto as he should and benefited from lowered pressure and great team, very profesisonal effort from him and what a result!
Also riders like Quintana, Kittel, Bardet are great fresh blood and made this Tour magical for me. So even SKY is not bothering me. I know what i think about them and i just reflect that in thinking about results. Like i did with late Armstrong years.
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 22-07-2013 10:02
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| solano |
Posted on 22-07-2013 09:59
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Stagiare
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I was pleased to see Kreuziger do well this Tour. I've been waiting a while to see him do it. To work for Contador and still finish 5th is impressive. |
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 22-07-2013 10:32
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doddy13 wrote:
Pellizotti2 wrote:
cio93 wrote:
What happened to the CN forum by the way?
Not accessible for me since yesterday.
They're updating the server or something like that, iirc
In their peak period? That's quite moronic.
The forum crashed everytime Froome went retard so it was necessary
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 22-07-2013 11:25
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ShortsNL wrote:
Isso and Aquarius, it's ironic what you're doing because the exact same argument is used by mr. Brailsford to show that Froome isn't doping.
You're pointing out that the data is not a valid way to compare riders due to false flat being in there, hence why Froome is supposedly abnormally faster on the climb, even though this data might suggest otherwise.
Brailsford states the data is not a valid way to compare riders due to all kinds of variables, including wind, hence why Froome's data can't be compared like this in the first place.
I hate to support Brailsford but it looks like you're spinning the argument.
You're selectively criticizing the validity of the data when it is in your favour, yet disregarding other criticism when it isn't in your favour.
Maybe your sarcasm meter is out of order and you didn't get my point ?
I say the speed in the middle of a peloton is not relevant when it comes to analysing one single riders datas (unless you could get access to his SRM).
It's only on steep parts that you can analyse anything, because of the much lesser dragging from other riders.
Taking into consideration the false flat before Mont Ventoux is not relevant. And when only the relevant parts (from Saint-Estève onwards) are considered, Froome was faster than Armstrong (by a tiny margin).
Of course wind conditions must be considered (and they are in most models), but Froome had equivalent or worst wind conditions than Armstrong, etc.
Also the length of the stage, and its profile, matter, as well as the stage number (ridden in the first week is not like ridden in the end of the third week), to judge what riders fatigue level might be. |
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| ShortsNL |
Posted on 22-07-2013 12:47
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I wasn't being sarcastic, and I think I got your argument the first time. You are stating that the ascent times provided by the earlier poster are not valid because of the false flat that it took into consideration.
You are doing so to support your notion that Froome has likely doped because according to you he was actually faster than Armstrong.
Brailsford has also questioned the validity of comparing ascent time data, in favour of his own interest, which is to support the belief that Froome hasn't doped.
This is not about whether or not Froome doped or my opinion on the matter, but purely on the questioning of data.
You and isso are criticising someone's dataset to support your argument. Yet you are disregarding the criticism on ascent times made by Brailsford, which go against your argument. As such you are only selectively criticising data. |
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| CountArach |
Posted on 22-07-2013 13:13
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doddy13 wrote:
CountArach wrote:
Finally watched it. All I can say is: How did Carlton Kirby not have a heart attack during that sprint?
People say many things about Kirby, I'll not say my opinion here. But nobody can deny that he doesn't lack passion.
Now if only he applied it.
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 25-11-2024 10:26
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| Trout80 |
Posted on 22-07-2013 14:28
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solano wrote:
I was pleased to see Kreuziger do well this Tour. I've been waiting a while to see him do it. To work for Contador and still finish 5th is impressive.
Yes, could have been much better if he had been captain |
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| doddy13 |
Posted on 22-07-2013 14:36
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I'm just so glad that nobody threw in the towel after that stage to Ax, else this would have been such a boring race.
Instead it was a good edition, I really enjoyed it.
There's no point slapping a schleck - Sean Kelly on "Who needs a slap"
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 22-07-2013 18:19
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ShortsNL wrote:
I wasn't being sarcastic, and I think I got your argument the first time. You are stating that the ascent times provided by the earlier poster are not valid because of the false flat that it took into consideration.
You are doing so to support your notion that Froome has likely doped because according to you he was actually faster than Armstrong.
Brailsford has also questioned the validity of comparing ascent time data, in favour of his own interest, which is to support the belief that Froome hasn't doped.
This is not about whether or not Froome doped or my opinion on the matter, but purely on the questioning of data.
You and isso are criticising someone's dataset to support your argument. Yet you are disregarding the criticism on ascent times made by Brailsford, which go against your argument. As such you are only selectively criticising data.
I said it can be done, but carefully enough, because of the amount of various datas that have to be taken into consideration.
More or less what Brailsford said, except that I think it should still be done, but carefully, when he thinks it shouldn't. |
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| BritPCMFan |
Posted on 22-07-2013 19:54
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Stagiare
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ShortsNL wrote:
I wasn't being sarcastic, and I think I got your argument the first time. You are stating that the ascent times provided by the earlier poster are not valid because of the false flat that it took into consideration.
You are doing so to support your notion that Froome has likely doped because according to you he was actually faster than Armstrong.
Brailsford has also questioned the validity of comparing ascent time data, in favour of his own interest, which is to support the belief that Froome hasn't doped.
This is not about whether or not Froome doped or my opinion on the matter, but purely on the questioning of data.
You and isso are criticising someone's dataset to support your argument. Yet you are disregarding the criticism on ascent times made by Brailsford, which go against your argument. As such you are only selectively criticising data.
Yay for someone else that likes open debates XD.
[quote]Aquarius
Of course wind conditions must be considered (and they are in most models), but Froome had equivalent or worst wind conditions than Armstrong, etc.
Also the length of the stage, and its profile, matter, as well as the stage number (ridden in the first week is not like ridden in the end of the third week), to judge what riders fatigue level might be. [/b]
Wait, the rest of the stage matters now?
So... we need to take into account the rest of the stage, but ignore the first 5k of the climb and only take into account the last 15.6? I'm failing to see the logic in that one.
My main point from the start of this hasn't been that Froome is clean because over 21.6k his time is slower. I've pointed out that a difference of 15 seconds over that terrain and distance is not a whole lot.
It was mainly because one user decided to mock another user as being incorrect by using very specific data that was misleading. The simple fact is that he was not quicker up Ventoux then Lance.
As I said, it really doesn't it any less suspicious.
One thing has interested me. Your a bit of an expert with these things so you might be able to explain it.
Are the 2009 times actually slowly then they could have been if rode Froome style? He was going near flat out and then flat out for the majority of that climb (behind Porte is pretty near flat i think). In 2009, the lead guys were in a group for much longer iirc, so they would have been watching each other and not always riding at their max. I'm thinking it probably minimal since they would have put in more attacks, which probably counterbalanced but I'd be interested on your opinions as I know you have more expert knowledge. |
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| Alakagom |
Posted on 22-07-2013 20:05
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| TimoCycling |
Posted on 22-07-2013 20:08
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Weird... Argos with 4 stagewins and Belkin with a 6th and 13th only 50.000. Wow Lampre was really bad this Tour... |
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 22-07-2013 20:08
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Tour de France Champion
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ka-ching for Sky 
I also can imagine Cannondale must be extremely happy with Sagan. What, like €78 000 is thanks to him or something? |
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| Cossack |
Posted on 22-07-2013 20:16
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Domestique
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Just clearly most prizes were for final classifications, AG2R got that much not only from breakaways and Riblon's Alpe win, but mainly for his super combativity award. |
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| BritPCMFan |
Posted on 22-07-2013 20:24
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Stagiare
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Lol. Sky's winnings are more then my average annual PCM wage bill. |
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| mb2612 |
Posted on 22-07-2013 20:25
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BritPCMFan wrote:
Are the 2009 times actually slowly then they could have been if rode Froome style? He was going near flat out and then flat out for the majority of that climb (behind Porte is pretty near flat i think). In 2009, the lead guys were in a group for much longer iirc, so they would have been watching each other and not always riding at their max. I'm thinking it probably minimal since they would have put in more attacks, which probably counterbalanced but I'd be interested on your opinions as I know you have more expert knowledge.
The climb this year was very slow until about 8km to go, which makes it very hard to judge how quickly they were going. Although the problem is in general climbs are not rider at maximum speed the whole way.
Edited by mb2612 on 22-07-2013 20:26
 [url=www.pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=33182] Team Santander Media Thread[/url]
Please assume I am joking unless otherwise stated |
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| Cossack |
Posted on 22-07-2013 20:32
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Domestique
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BritPCMFan wrote:
Lol. Sky's winnings are more then my average annual PCM wage bill.
You have to remember that winnings were just displayed by teams, but most of them were given directly to riders, not the team. |
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 22-07-2013 20:35
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Tour de France Champion
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I heard the money gets divided in 10: 9 cuts for each rider on the team and 1 cut for the staff. |
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