jacobjc88 wrote:
I agree with you on that it's dissapointing that such big riders lose so much time today, but I ain't surprised. Really De Gendt have been racing really bad for a long time now.......Let's hope he gets in better shape for the Tour de France.
De Gendt is just riding like he always does. Losing time on every hilly/mountain stage and now and then he takes a win with a break-away. I still don't get it how he managed to ride to an 8th place (the place he had before that insane Mortirolo/Stelvio attack) in last year's Giro.
De Gendt won't do anything at the Tour, mayby go for a stagewin if he's in the lucky break-away. Poels will be Vacansoleil's GC-man.
TheManxMissile wrote:
And as these hate discussions are getting large and clogging the racing threads... Updated the Sky Doping Thread to the Sky Doping/Hate Thread
No, personally I respect Wiggins for ordering peloton to wait when Evans had problems with needles on last TdF EBH is also a rider, I think, difficult to hate.
climeon wrote:
There are far more valid reasons for Froome's sudden improvement though. He had bizharia fromm 2009-2011, came from Africa, and had great difficulty adapting to riding in the peleton. Jonathon Vaughters said that he heard before the Vuelta that Froome was doing tour de France winning numbers ever since his bizharia was cured but tired himself out trying to ride in the peleton so tried to hire him. Santambrogio however had no "excuses"
Want to see me dismantle that hilarious drivel with 1 sentence:
Explain how he was just as average in time trials. Did he have trouble riding in tandem with the follow car?
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
climeon wrote:
There are far more valid reasons for Froome's sudden improvement though. He had bizharia fromm 2009-2011, came from Africa, and had great difficulty adapting to riding in the peleton. Jonathon Vaughters said that he heard before the Vuelta that Froome was doing tour de France winning numbers ever since his bizharia was cured but tired himself out trying to ride in the peleton so tried to hire him. Santambrogio however had no "excuses"
Want to see me dismantle that hilarious drivel with 1 sentence:
Explain how he was just as average in time trials. Did he have trouble riding in tandem with the follow car?
Marginal gains. Just look at how Froome has that perfect aerodynamic positi... oh wait
XxMillad24Xx wrote:
Did Froome show any results before the 2011 vuelta? I'm new to cycling, thats why i'm asking. I don't like accusing riders of doping, but this is just ridiculous.
The only thing he had shown uptill then are ridiculously bad bike handling skills.
climeon wrote:
There are far more valid reasons for Froome's sudden improvement though. He had bizharia fromm 2009-2011, came from Africa, and had great difficulty adapting to riding in the peleton. Jonathon Vaughters said that he heard before the Vuelta that Froome was doing tour de France winning numbers ever since his bizharia was cured but tired himself out trying to ride in the peleton so tried to hire him. Santambrogio however had no "excuses"
Want to see me dismantle that hilarious drivel with 1 sentence:
Explain how he was just as average in time trials. Did he have trouble riding in tandem with the follow car?
He did well in time trials before bizharia, he came 17th in the world's in 2009 and then when his bizharia was over had gained lots of experience riding in the peleton and developed. But even early on in 2011, he was 11 and 9 in tour de swisse time trials whilst he didn't do as well in the mountains. Also he is a climber first, time trialist second as seen by coming third yesterday but first today so naturally didn't do as well in time trials as he could have done in non-time trials
Edited by climeon on 06-06-2013 14:35
climeon wrote:
He did well in time trials before bizharia
No he didn't. And "before bilharzia" is a really easy argument to make considering we have no idea when he actually got over it (if he had it) so you can point to any date that suits you and say "that's before, that's after"
climeon wrote:
, he came 17th in the world's in 2009
That sounds mildly impressive until you stop for a second to think and realize the worlds ITT doesn't have 200 riders like a normal TT, it has 60 and most of them are from the people's republic of Elbonia or wherever.
The fact of the matter is he was over 4 and a half minutes behind the winner and 7 places behind David freaking McCann
climeon wrote:
and then when his bizharia was over
See above
climeon wrote:
had gained lots of experience riding in the peleton and developed.
Experience is a slow and gradual learning curve, not being crap for years then suddenly becoming a superstar from one day to the next. Experience by definition cannot be an explanation.
climeon wrote:
But even early on in 2011, he was 11 and 9 in tour de swisse time trials whilst his best mountain result was 20th for that.
The wind changed during the TT making several slow riders get faster times. Nelson Oliveira was 4th, is he going to turn into a superstar?
Try naming a good result from before his sudden upturn in the second half of 2011. Not one from after. One, just one. Go ahead.
climeon wrote:
Also he is a climber first, time trialist second as seen by coming third yesterday but first today so naturally didn't do as well in time trials as he could have done in non-time trials
He came in third in a field of most of the world's top riders. It's ridiculous to say he couldn't shine if he had the talent
Edited by issoisso on 06-06-2013 14:43
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
The funny thing about the Froome-hate is that we all know, and hopefully accept, that all these top endurance cyclists are doped as a given.
And whilst the nature of Froome's spike in performance might be a sorry reminder for us as to the nature of doping in cycling, it also (for me) also suggests that Froome was less likely to have doped in his earlier years than say... Andy Schleck, Gesink, Kreuziger / similar riders who have shown promise throughout the duration of their career.
He's still down in the morality trench with all the others at the end of the day of course. Great entertainer imo nonetheless, even if most of his entertainment is unintentional comedy
https://www.cqrank...ceid=10921 - 34rd at Fleche ahead of some big names in 2009 isn't sign of top star, but quite capable, and that's a decent result I'd say.
Edited by Alakagom on 06-06-2013 14:48
pcm2009fan wrote:
The funny thing about the Froome-hate is that we all know, and hopefully accept, that all these top endurance cyclists are doped as a given.
And whilst the nature of Froome's spike in performance might be a sorry reminder for us as to the nature of doping in cycling, it also (for me) also suggests that Froome was less likely to have doped in his earlier years than say... Andy Schleck, Gesink, Kreuziger / similar riders who have shown promise throughout the duration of their career.
He's still down in the morality trench with all the others at the end of the day of course. Great entertainer imo nonetheless, even if most of his entertainment is unintentional comedy
Personally it just pisses me off that fans of Froome and Sky tend to be suspicious of other riders but justify their own with "oh he just trains harder" or "they have super advanced secret training methods"
Anyway, changing the subject. Boy that Rogers sure is flying for Saxo Bank, eh?
Must've forgotten how to train
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
i guarantee if Froome was from France or Italy(or other nation) not british...he would be darling like Voeckler is...leave him alone...he aint a cheat if he hasn't been caught!!
Just keep on hating!!!
masch20 wrote:
i guarantee if Froome was from France or Italy(or other nation) not british...he would be darling like Voeckler is...leave him alone...he aint a cheat if he hasn't been caught!!
Just keep on hating!!!
This is a joke I hope?
Anobody that wnats to explain what Bizharia is?
Edited by Spilak23 on 06-06-2013 14:52
issoisso wrote:
And "before bilharzia" is a really easy argument to make considering we have no idea when he actually got over it (if he had it) so you can point to any date that suits you and say "that's before, that's after"
The way I've understood bilharzia, it's not something you can just get rid of. I thought you had to keep it down with the help of medications and therapy. I might have misunderstood though. I think I've read that Froome's illness wasn't discovered until 2011.
issoisso wrote:
Try naming a good result from before his sudden upturn in the second half of 2011. Not one from after. One, just one. Go ahead.
I'd nominate 16th in the final time trial of the 2008 Tour de France as a 23 year old. 14th if you take out Schumacher and Kohl (but if you do, you should probably take out half the field).
With that said, I don't buy the "inexperienced in the peloton" stuff, and I hate what Froome does to a race. He's desperately ugly to look at, and his train is more on time than the Tokyo subway.
The funny thing about the Froome-hate is that we all know, and hopefully accept, that all these top endurance cyclists are doped as a given.
But what all these top endurance cyclists have is natural talent.
Froome is not even in the top 50 qua natural talent.
How can you work that out Spilak? We'll probably never observe Froome et al. racing against each other drug-free...
Maybe circa 07-09 Froome raced clean as a highly naturally talented and clean rider, amidst a dope-polluted peloton to produce the sort of unspectacular, yet nonetheless solid, results that Alakagom highlighted above? Who knows?
@Iossio
The bizharia argument is not the easy argument to make, it's the only real argument you can make. Without the bizharia point he is almost certainly doping. The bizharia was reported to have been fixed during, not before, the 2011 season and therefore as you know he has very few results from the first half of 2011. Although he does have 9th in a stage of romandie and some 2008-2009.
The point pertaining to experience was that when he first came to the scene he had none but he gained experience in a "slow and gradual" way whilst he had bizharia which meant that when he got over the bizharia, he had experience. However, the time trial point is a valid one, which I overlooked and that undermines to some extent the "not experienced enough to ride in peleton" argument. Although I still think for aforementioned reasons that it is still valid to some degree and I would say that the only really world class timetrialist here is martin who was even sick two days ago yet beat Froome by over 50seconds. He lost to Rohan "freaking" Dennis.
Edited by climeon on 06-06-2013 15:00
pcm2009fan wrote:
How can you work that out Spilak? We'll probably never observe Froome et al. racing against each other drug-free...
Maybe circa 07-09 Froome raced clean as a highly naturally talented and clean rider, amidst a dope-polluted peloton to produce the sort of unspectacular, yet nonetheless solid, results that Alakagom highlighted above? Who knows?
I look at what results a rider gets at young age. Ullrich, Schleck, Boonen, Valverde, Sagan, Boasson Hagen all got their first op results at the pro aged 23 or less. It's generally a very good way to look at it
Maybe circa 07-09 Froome raced clean as a highly naturally talented and clean rider, amidst a dope-polluted peloton to produce the sort of unspectacular, yet nonetheless solid, results that Alakagom highlighted above? Who knows?
Yeah Barloworld....
Edited by Spilak23 on 06-06-2013 14:58
EBH is also a rider, I think, difficult to hate.
