Montolivo wrote:
As we are talking about watts do anybody know how much watt the best in the gc did in this years Giro? (Hesjedal, Rodriguez, Scarponi)
sorry we are being mean. Almost everyone from English speaking backgrounds becomes a pro cycling fan with Lance as the person who got them interested in the sport. And over time they are generally shown so much circumstantial evidence that Lance doped, that they accept it and move on. As such, these debates come along every 6 months or so, and hence the people here are quick to jump on it.
Honestly, probably the best idea is to accept that he doped, as did almost every other cyclist of the last 20 years. There is real evidence things are getting cleaner currently, but I don't think that things will ever get 100% clean. So enjoy Lance's feats, because he was no worse than anyone else, and as such his results are still amazing, but, at least with cycling fans on the internet, the more you argue Lance is clean, the less people will like you.
If you still want to believe, then go ahead, but I would avoid being confrontational, because plenty of people know the arguments better than you do. And just know at the back of your mind that one day he might get caught, so don't bet everything on him being clean.
Sorry if this is condescending, I'm trying to be nice, and I have no reason to not like you currently.
mb
see, I just dropped the subject. So why did you bring it back up?
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy
issoisso wrote:
For the "Armstrong didn't dope" crowd, here's a post I wrote a long time ago on the CN forum. This was before his ridiculously suspicious blood values from the 2010 Tour de France were revealed, so I don't mention them here:
Let's see what we have as arguments here.....
Let's see...
First [etc. etc. etc...]
Thanks for the re-post it was an entertaining and enlightening read - it must have been given I actually read it all
Particuarly interesting about the 2001 Tour. I've recently wondered if so many being on the juice in the 90's created a levelish playing field (something I'd previously assumed) or whether the effectiveness of doping varied wildly depending on a particular riders anatomy - i.e. if everyone was riding clean would Lance have still won a lot or did his body take to PED's particularly well?
Edited by ianrussell on 14-06-2012 01:22
sorry we are being mean. Almost everyone from English speaking backgrounds becomes a pro cycling fan with Lance as the person who got them interested in the sport. And over time they are generally shown so much circumstantial evidence that Lance doped, that they accept it and move on. As such, these debates come along every 6 months or so, and hence the people here are quick to jump on it.
Honestly, probably the best idea is to accept that he doped, as did almost every other cyclist of the last 20 years. There is real evidence things are getting cleaner currently, but I don't think that things will ever get 100% clean. So enjoy Lance's feats, because he was no worse than anyone else, and as such his results are still amazing, but, at least with cycling fans on the internet, the more you argue Lance is clean, the less people will like you.
If you still want to believe, then go ahead, but I would avoid being confrontational, because plenty of people know the arguments better than you do. And just know at the back of your mind that one day he might get caught, so don't bet everything on him being clean.
Sorry if this is condescending, I'm trying to be nice, and I have no reason to not like you currently.
PCM.Daily NFL Fantasy Football Champion: 2012 PCM.Daily NHL Prediction Game Champion: 2013 PCM.Daily NFL Prediction Game Champion: 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2021
I'm just wondering, does anybody hear believe in god?
Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring.
PCM.Daily NFL Fantasy Football Champion: 2012 PCM.Daily NHL Prediction Game Champion: 2013 PCM.Daily NFL Prediction Game Champion: 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2021
For those who believe Lance doped and do believe in god here are my facts
1. there are a lot of facts that can prove that Lance doped, there are also lots of facts that can prove god doesn't exist
2. Both can have scientific reasons for Lance doping and god not being real but neither has been or can be actually proved.
3. Noone has found evidence that god isn't real, Lance has NEVER failed a drug test
I'm not trying to compare Lance to God i'm just trying to point out that there are tons of facts stacked against both but for some reason people just insist Lance doped. HE HAS NEVER FAILED A DRUG TEST. So if you believe in god why is it so hard for people to believe that Lance didn't dope? Why can't you just believe him when he says he didn't dope?
That is how i see this subject as this is why i firmly believe that LANCE DIDN'T DOPE!!!!!
Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring.
chris01 wrote:
For those who believe Lance doped and do believe in god here are my facts
1. there are a lot of facts that can prove that Lance doped, there are also lots of facts that can prove god doesn't exist
2. Both can have scientific reasons for Lance doping and god not being real but neither has been or can be actually proved.
3. Noone has found evidence that god isn't real, Lance has NEVER failed a drug test
I'm not trying to compare Lance to God i'm just trying to point out that there are tons of facts stacked against both but for some reason people just insist Lance doped. HE HAS NEVER FAILED A DRUG TEST. So if you believe in god why is it so hard for people to believe that Lance didn't dope? Why can't you just believe him when he says he didn't dope?
Maybe because he tested positive 7 times but got off on the statute of limitations?
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
He has competed as an endurance athlete for 25 years and has never had a spike in performance. So he either doped for 25 years or didn't dope at all, and it is highly unlikely that he doped for 25 years.
Edited by chris01 on 14-06-2012 03:47
Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring.
chris01 wrote:
He has competed as an endurance athlete for 25 years and has never had a spike in performance. So he either doped for 25 years or didn't dope at all, and it is highly unlikely that he doped for 25 years.
So you're just going to ignore the 7 tests, eh?
Fine, I see you're one of those people who come up with argument A, I shoot down A, so you change to B, I shoot down B, etc.
His performance not only spiked, it is the greatest most celebrated spike in the history of cycling.
He went from a guy who could do well in classics and win from breakaways and lost several minutes in each time trial and half an hour in each mountain stage, to a guy who won almost every mountain stage and time trial.
There has never been such a ridiculous spike in performance by a rider other than his.
I await your next misguided argument
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
chris01 wrote:
He has competed as an endurance athlete for 25 years and has never had a spike in performance. So he either doped for 25 years or didn't dope at all, and it is highly unlikely that he doped for 25 years.
Quite simple, he has never been proven to do drugs and he didn't.. Just because he is American, people across the ocean do not like that he won 7 TDF's... We had one good cyclist and then they get jealous and accuse him of doping.
PCM.Daily NFL Fantasy Football Champion: 2012 PCM.Daily NHL Prediction Game Champion: 2013 PCM.Daily NFL Prediction Game Champion: 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2021
chris01 wrote:
He has competed as an endurance athlete for 25 years and has never had a spike in performance. So he either doped for 25 years or didn't dope at all, and it is highly unlikely that he doped for 25 years.
Quite simple, he has never been proven to do drugs and he didn't.. Just because he is American, people across the ocean do not like that he won 7 TDF's... We had one good cyclist and then they get jealous and accuse him of doping.
The amount of ignorance in your post is staggering. It is nothing to do with jealousness, and that is shown by the simple fact that we will just as easily accuse europeans such as Induráin or Pantani of doping.
It is nothing to do with you having one good cyclist, because you americans had a cyclist far, far better than Armstrong, who won far more, and to this day is celebrated far and wide by europeans as the man who stands for all that is good and honest in clean cycling.
The man who has put his reputation and career on the line several times, and has lost most of what he had, because he believes that he can help right cycling's doping problem by speaking against its problems.
A man who has lost most of what he had because Lance Armstrong doesn't like that he speaks against doping. A man who was Armstrong's hero, until he spoke out against Armstrong's obvious doping.
He was amazingly talented and extremely honest and he won the biggest races in the world clean. His name is Greg LeMond. And he is one of the greatests cyclists of all time.
But I salute you for cramming so much ignorance into one post. It was impressive Edited by issoisso on 14-06-2012 03:59
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
chris01 wrote:
3. Noone has found evidence that god isn't real, Lance has NEVER failed a drug test
Completely incomparable. One must first prove that God does exist before any attempt can be made to prove that he doesn't (look up burden of proof - those asserting a claim must provide evidence).
In the case of Lance there is evidence both real (such as the fact that he did fail drug tests) and circumstantial (see issoisso's post a few page's back). As such the evidence has been placed out there and it is up to theLance side to explain these things.
chris01 wrote:
He has competed as an endurance athlete for 25 years and has never had a spike in performance. So he either doped for 25 years or didn't dope at all, and it is highly unlikely that he doped for 25 years.
Quite simple, he has never been proven to do drugs and he didn't.. Just because he is American, people across the ocean do not like that he won 7 TDF's... We had one good cyclist and then they get jealous and accuse him of doping.
The amount of ignorance in your post is staggering.
You had a cyclist far, far better than Armstrong, who won far more, and is celebrated far and wide by europeans as the man who stands for all that is good and honest in clean cycling.
He was amazingly talented and extremely honest and he won the biggest races in the world clean. His name is Greg LeMond.
But I salute you for cramming so much ignorance into one post. It was impressive
No don't get me wrong.. I am by no means starting an argument, but think about this.. your country, wherever it is, think of a cyclist from there. He gets accused of doping when your entire country doesn't think he did and almost knows he didn't. Would you be offended if everyone here in the USA brought him down and said he didn't actually achieve whatever it is that he did...
PCM.Daily NFL Fantasy Football Champion: 2012 PCM.Daily NHL Prediction Game Champion: 2013 PCM.Daily NFL Prediction Game Champion: 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2021
chris01 wrote:
He has competed as an endurance athlete for 25 years and has never had a spike in performance. So he either doped for 25 years or didn't dope at all, and it is highly unlikely that he doped for 25 years.
Quite simple, he has never been proven to do drugs and he didn't.. Just because he is American, people across the ocean do not like that he won 7 TDF's... We had one good cyclist and then they get jealous and accuse him of doping.
The amount of ignorance in your post is staggering.
You americans had a cyclist far, far better than Armstrong, who won far more, and to this day is celebrated far and wide by europeans as the man who stands for all that is good and honest in clean cycling.
The man who has put his reputation and career on the line several times, and has lost most of what he had, because he believes that he can help right cycling's doping problem by speaking against its problems.
A man who has lost most of what he had because Lance Armstrong doesn't like that he speaks against doping. A man who was Armstrong's hero, until he spoke out against Armstrong's obvious doping.
He was amazingly talented and extremely honest and he won the biggest races in the world clean. His name is Greg LeMond. And he is one of the greatests cyclists of all time.
But I salute you for cramming so much ignorance into one post. It was impressive
Oh please look whose post is ignorant now, if internet was around back then and cyclist doping investigations was as big back then as it was when Lance rode he would have been under the same exact scrutiny.
Give a man a fish and feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish and feed him for a lifetime. Teach a man to cycle and he will realize fishing is stupid and boring.
chris01 wrote:
He has competed as an endurance athlete for 25 years and has never had a spike in performance. So he either doped for 25 years or didn't dope at all, and it is highly unlikely that he doped for 25 years.
Quite simple, he has never been proven to do drugs and he didn't.. Just because he is American, people across the ocean do not like that he won 7 TDF's... We had one good cyclist and then they get jealous and accuse him of doping.
The amount of ignorance in your post is staggering.
You americans had a cyclist far, far better than Armstrong, who won far more, and to this day is celebrated far and wide by europeans as the man who stands for all that is good and honest in clean cycling.
The man who has put his reputation and career on the line several times, and has lost most of what he had, because he believes that he can help right cycling's doping problem by speaking against its problems.
A man who has lost most of what he had because Lance Armstrong doesn't like that he speaks against doping. A man who was Armstrong's hero, until he spoke out against Armstrong's obvious doping.
He was amazingly talented and extremely honest and he won the biggest races in the world clean. His name is Greg LeMond. And he is one of the greatests cyclists of all time.
But I salute you for cramming so much ignorance into one post. It was impressive
Oh please look whose post is ignorant now, if internet was around back then and cyclist doping investigations was as big back then as it was when Lance rode he would have been under the same exact scrutiny.
PCM.Daily NFL Fantasy Football Champion: 2012 PCM.Daily NHL Prediction Game Champion: 2013 PCM.Daily NFL Prediction Game Champion: 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2021
chris01 wrote:
He has competed as an endurance athlete for 25 years and has never had a spike in performance. So he either doped for 25 years or didn't dope at all, and it is highly unlikely that he doped for 25 years.
Quite simple, he has never been proven to do drugs and he didn't.. Just because he is American, people across the ocean do not like that he won 7 TDF's... We had one good cyclist and then they get jealous and accuse him of doping.
The amount of ignorance in your post is staggering.
You americans had a cyclist far, far better than Armstrong, who won far more, and to this day is celebrated far and wide by europeans as the man who stands for all that is good and honest in clean cycling.
The man who has put his reputation and career on the line several times, and has lost most of what he had, because he believes that he can help right cycling's doping problem by speaking against its problems.
A man who has lost most of what he had because Lance Armstrong doesn't like that he speaks against doping. A man who was Armstrong's hero, until he spoke out against Armstrong's obvious doping.
He was amazingly talented and extremely honest and he won the biggest races in the world clean. His name is Greg LeMond. And he is one of the greatests cyclists of all time.
But I salute you for cramming so much ignorance into one post. It was impressive
Oh please look whose post is ignorant now, if internet was around back then and cyclist doping investigations was as big back then as it was when Lance rode he would have been under the same exact scrutiny.
Are you going to dispute the numbers posted earlier about LeMond and his wattage output?
chris01 wrote:
Oh please look whose post is ignorant now, if internet was around back then and cyclist doping investigations was as big back then as it was when Lance rode he would have been under the same exact scrutiny.
Again, your post is very ignorant.
LeMond is under the exact same scrutiny right now. By Armstrong fans. They keep bringing up the same discussions for years.
Check the cyclingnews forum, there are threads on LeMond with several dozen pages of posts. And do you know what all those rabid armstrong fans trying desperately to find even the slightest glimmer of a trace circumstancial evidence have found about LeMond?
Nothing.
Absolutely nothing.
Which, by the way, is the same that other riders and teams found on LeMond back in his day when he was the best in the world.
He was under scrutiny by a lot of very powerful people with a very large axe to grind who were trying desperately to find anything at all to pin on him. Why? Because he was campaigning strongly to get blood doping controls instituted when there were none back then. Other riders and teams didn't want any of that.
But of course you know nothing of that. You're extremely ignorant of all of that. Which would be perfectly fine and normal, if it wasn't for the fact that you are accusing others of ignorance.
You're digging yourself into a massive hole.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
chris01 wrote:
Oh please look whose post is ignorant now, if internet was around back then and cyclist doping investigations was as big back then as it was when Lance rode he would have been under the same exact scrutiny.
Again, your post is very ignorant.
LeMond is under the exact same scrutiny right now. By Armstrong fans. They keep bringing up the same discussions for years.
Check the cyclingnews forum, there are threads on LeMond with several dozen pages of posts. And do you know what all those rabid armstrong fans trying desperately to find even the slightest glimmer of a trace circumstancial evidence have found about LeMond?
Nothing.
Absolutely nothing.
Which, by the way, is the same that other riders and teams found on LeMond back in his day when he was the best in the world.
He was under scrutiny by a lot of very powerful people with a very large axe to grind who were trying desperately to find anything at all to pin on him. Why? Because he was campaigning strongly to get blood doping controls instituted when there were none back then. Other riders and teams didn't want any of that.
But of course you know nothing of that. You're extremely ignorant of all of that. Which would be perfectly fine and normal, if it wasn't for the fact that you are accusing others of ignorance.
You're digging yourself into a massive hole.
What sort of "hole" is he digging himself into? This isn't a game or competition and nobody cares if he is right or wrong.. its all OPINIONS
PCM.Daily NFL Fantasy Football Champion: 2012 PCM.Daily NHL Prediction Game Champion: 2013 PCM.Daily NFL Prediction Game Champion: 2012, 2013, 2015, 2016, 2021
