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The Difficult Topics
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| Lachi |
Posted on 17-10-2012 11:22
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Atlantius wrote:
In regards of leadership dictatorship has (more or less) only one major flaw: No human are suited to be a dictator.
That is not true. I am a born leader. Just give me all the powers (and your money) and I will prove it...  |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 17-10-2012 12:09
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I am the same as Lachi
Guys, i dont like politics debate much, but it is bad to be born to poverty or privilege? How and why? There is not such a thing like justice in as who we are born, some are lucky,some not. I would be very happy if the wealthy people gave more support to the poor one, but to do it artificially? Sorry, but this is plain stupid, some work just generates more value (not dependent on fact if it is material or spiritual) and privilege than the other.
It is just stupidity of us people and of our time that singer e.g. is more wealthy and respected by the majority, rather than nurse in hospital, or surgeon himself.
What would be the motivation to work harder (and you can be sure there will be never unity in how person handle his attitude to work) if you and your next generation (childeren) cant benefit from it? We would just stagnate as the humanity, stay on one dirty smelly place where everyone is level.That is just pure nonsense and i hope nobody will never try to realize that again. I would be the first that tries to kill that bastard.
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| Atlantius |
Posted on 17-10-2012 12:39
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Being born into a certain status is (in my opinion) bad because it more than anything takes away peoples initiative to work for a better life as you might not be rewarded for your work because the upper class will protect each other and their privileges. It is okay for us as a society to regulate this. The structures of society is just as artificial as trying to change them.
A lot of the work we reward with high wages today doesn't actually generate a lot. Financial workers getting paid a fortune to move money around with no other purpose than exactly that does not contribute more to society than the nurse or the guy who pick up the trash.
I am not a communist (communism is taking things to an extreme, that doesn't work). I believe that everyone should get rewarded related to their own effort. It will benefit them, and it will give them an opportunity to help their children. Both the wealthy and the poor will get more motivation to work hard, as the wealthy can't just lean back and enjoy their grandfathers money, and the poor can actually change their life if the have the will. If you have to raise a lot of money to get an education only the rich will get one, if the best minds are given an education regardless of social background it is much more beneficial to society.
It is just stupidity of us people and of our time that singer e.g. is more wealthy and respected by the majority, rather than nurse in hospital, or surgeon himself.
Completely agree on that one 
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| Lachi |
Posted on 17-10-2012 12:48
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The problem is neither the form of government nor the jurisdiction.
The problem is that people act criminal and/or unethical. You cannot fix this with politics or law.
Either you remove everybody from the society who does not behave or you have to live with it.
If there would only be a good way to "remove" them. Maybe put all the criminals, politicians and top tier managers into a space craft and send it to Mars. Maybe we normal people should make them believe that the world is ending and that can escape it by spending all their money on spacecrafts now.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 17-10-2012 12:50
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I can agree with you on many points, but how would you try to ensure that what you are suggesting is beyongd my imagination. Only way to get you suggestions working is throughout punishment and restrictions to man's rights imo.
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| Atlantius |
Posted on 17-10-2012 13:14
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Lachi wrote:
The problem is that people act criminal and/or unethical. You cannot fix this with politics or law.
A lot of people will act unethical, fewer will act criminal - this is where law gets relevant...
Politics and law decide where the line between unethical and illegal lies and it can regulate the reasons that most people end up being criminal: Money
If you get well rewarded even for doing an unpleasant job, you wont have the same urge to get criminal so that you can also afford the big flatscreen tv - and you won't get as bitter on society for not treating you right.
But yes, a lot of people are driven by greed, but most act in the "grey areas", and it is possible to affect the general ethics of a society en regards of what is acceptable and how much you risk losing breaking the ethic boundaries (economic and social losses). That much should be obvious just by observing the world today.
Such a thing as a perfect society does not exist and can never be achieved. Mainly because it would demand that everyone agreed what the perfect society was.
Avin Wargunnson wrote: Only way to get you suggestions working is throughout punishment and restrictions to man's rights imo.
And what would be wrong by society punishing things that we, as a society, have agreed is considered wrong? Other than punishment you can actually reward people for doing right as well
Restrictions to man's rights can be seen many ways (now this is where it gets really philosophical..). Could it not be said that a man's right to get rewarded for his own work was a higher priority than man's right to get rewarded for his grandfather's work? A lot of people would argue that a hierarchical society violates the rights of the poor in benefit of the rich...
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 17-10-2012 13:35
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You seem confused to me, as if there would be same evaluation for everybody (factory owner and factory worker) nobody would have been producing that flat Tvs you are talking about.
Why he would do that, because private property and business would have no sense.
And you speak, about "we" society. What if i would be not happy with what you society are trying to do? I would be removed for greater good?
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| Atlantius |
Posted on 17-10-2012 13:51
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
You seem confused to me, as if there would be same evaluation for everybody (factory owner and factory worker) nobody would have been producing that flat Tvs you are talking about.
Why he would do that, because private property and business would have no sense.
I honestly can't see how awarding each man for his efforts and work would do what you suggest. You'll have to explain that a bit more detailed...
And you speak, about "we" society. What if i would be not happy with what you society are trying to do? I would be removed for greater good?
Now you're just plain stupid (sorry for the language). In my very first reply I said that dictatorship was not the way to go. I have no wish to abolish democracy and make "political cleansings". My stands in this discussion is of a philosphical/ideological nature - not realistic political.
As said in my previous reply:Such a thing as a perfect society does not exist and can never be achieved. Mainly because it would demand that everyone agreed what the perfect society was.
But yes, if the society through democracy decide that they want a certain structure/set of rules and you don't agree you can choose either to play by the rules or take the consequence. Just like you can't break current laws just because you disagree
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 17-10-2012 21:53
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Are people seriously backing communism?
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| cactus-jack |
Posted on 17-10-2012 23:15
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I wasn't backing communism, per say, I was just saying that most of the bad PR comes from insane despots who chose to lead by it. I believe that actions such as genocide can be done in the name of communism in the same way that it can be done in the name of democracy, totalitarianism, theocraticism, etc...
There's a fine line between "psychotherapist" and "psycho the rapist"
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| Lachi |
Posted on 17-10-2012 23:15
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There is a difference between communism and what people called communism when in fact it was just some sort of dictatorship. Good example is China, that is NOT communism.
I doubt that anybody here studied communism, so neither can you be for or against something you don't know.
But like "communism" which was a failure in all countries, the same goes for "capitalism". It is a major failure, just look at the huge debts all the countries have. For most countries it is impossible to ever pay back these amounts, so all we can do is wait until they crash and pray that these idiots don't try to hide it with another war. |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 18-10-2012 06:50
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Cant say better than Lachi did, i agree completly.
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| Levi4life |
Posted on 18-10-2012 07:37
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Not to be too pedantic, but Communism is the correct terminology for the oppressive government form we are talking about. Marxism is the more correct term to describe the idealogically perfect form that was corrupted into communism by the big men of history, like Stalin and Mao. Marxism and communism are two very different things. Marx believed the state was part of the problem, as it was the tool of capitalists. In Communism, the state is.the primary apparatus by which equality is achieved. Marx was more of a contrarian than a pragmatist though. He got very wealthy on the lecture circuit whilst socialist revolutions were popping up around Europe.
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 18-10-2012 07:45
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China is nowhere near Communism. It's just a economically-capitalistic political-dictatorship.
In other words, a bunch of crap.
But they'll soon rule the earth, and this comment might cost me my life in 10 years |
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| Levi4life |
Posted on 18-10-2012 08:01
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They wont rule the earth. China's economy is slowing down. As the economic growth slows the pressure on the government will mount and it will buckle or collapse. In ten years Nigeria will rule the world. China can only expand so far without becoming a high wage industrialized service based economy like Europe and the US.
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| jph27 |
Posted on 18-10-2012 08:09
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baseballlover312 wrote:
Are people seriously backing communism?
Sound principle, poor in practice. |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 18-10-2012 08:23
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Levi4life wrote:
They wont rule the earth. China's economy is slowing down. As the economic growth slows the pressure on the government will mount and it will buckle or collapse. In ten years Nigeria will rule the world. China can only expand so far without becoming a high wage industrialized service based economy like Europe and the US.
You somewhat underestimate the possible power of billions similar faces thrown to the west world, i am a bit in fear of that to be honest. Economically, i agree with you, anyway Africa is last continent to rise rapidly, but there are so many problems (Nigeria is bit better,but still).
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| Levi4life |
Posted on 18-10-2012 09:39
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Population is as much a burden as an asset. In coming years, China's population will increasingly become a drag.
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 18-10-2012 11:21
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Definitely. And don't forget that their economy (which supposed to raise 8% every year) is probably based on false figures as well. It's impossible to rise 8% yearly for such a long period. |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 18-10-2012 11:24
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Levi4life wrote:
Population is as much a burden as an asset. In coming years, China's population will increasingly become a drag.
I'm not sure I understand.
More population, more consumption, more economical growth, isn't it ?
Of course you need to have more exports than imports, otherwise it means money is running out of the country. |
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