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New OVL Calculation for 2025 season
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| Fabianski |
Posted on 16-09-2024 10:35
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It is a known feature of the current OVL formula that it rates puncheurs with good res/acc very high, and Nys is by no means an extreme example of this.
Nys also starts with 1.15 XP to still allow him to reach level 3. But given that the planner deadline was last Wednesday, I suppose you somehow managed to plan him correctly anyway?
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 16-09-2024 10:47
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Blasing wrote:
My lvl 1 rider Thibau Nys only has 69 racedays for PCT because he is 73,08 overall, despite only having 2 single stat being slightly higher than his ovl
Man that must be tough 
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT]  Xero Racing
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| Ezeefreak |
Posted on 16-09-2024 10:57
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Domestique
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Yeah, it must be really hard to have on of the best talents in the game with already great stats from the start. When even the Starting Level and XP was adjusted to make it possible to level him also from 1 to 3 in a year.
VERY HARD indeed, Such a nightmare for him. 
(sorry Jandal  )
On a more serious note
It was made sure that the normal leveling behaviour was possible for him and like stated before he doesnt seem to be one of those who are "suffering" a lot with the current OVL
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| DubbelDekker |
Posted on 16-09-2024 19:17
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Good idea, roturn. Thanks
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| roturn |
Posted on 19-11-2024 09:18
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Team Manager
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A first closer check to the new OVL idea.
It`s not yet perfect and neither it is final yet.
There are clearly a few riders with the new formulas, I am not yet happy with seeing the OVL change vs. performance.
But it got rid of any jumps and is making the OVL a lot more simple while for most riders and teams it pretty much remains very similar.
Some rider types obviously go up a bit more than others, others will go down a bit more.
Feel free to check and if you find things far off, mention them. But please don`t make this thread something like why does rider xyz go up 0,1 OVL or something, which is close to 0. And before making those posts also check for similar riders, if they might have a similar change, so that the overall picture remains same.
In case you already downloaded the file, do so again starting now.
Then you can also play around with the macros.
Both OVL full and OVL Selected will update the old and new OVL in coloumns 29 and 30.
https://pcmdaily....B_OVL.xlsm
Edited by roturn on 19-11-2024 09:39
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| knockout |
Posted on 19-11-2024 19:00
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Grand Tour Champion
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On a first quick glance: Third tier sprinters (77-78 SP guys) raise quite a bit higher than i would ever expect.
Average increases of some subgroups with some quick filters:
All 77-78 SP: + 0,74
All 77-78 SP & 73+ OVR (to filter out some declining dead weight): + 0,70
All 77-78 SP & 73+ OVR & no 75+ HI / 75+CB (to filter out dual threats): 0,75
This is a type of rider that seemed to have gone below their renewals wages in FA already fairly often before raising their OVR further. One subgroup is particularly hit by the new formulas:
Sprinters with a little bit of cb skills:
All 77-78 SP & 73+ OVR & 70-74 CB: +0,96
Nommela, Hesters, Nihal Silva, Max Losch, Jay Major, Lahcen Saber, etc. I seem to remember a lot of these from the most recent renewals releases already.
If i look slightly below that range for the same type of rider:
All 76 SP & 73+ OVR & 70-72 CB: +1,05
That group is only 5 riders with: Karl Lauk, Mihkel Raim, Marten Kooistra, Marc Sarreau, Luke Rowe but they all look like 50k riders to me instead of 100k riders like they might become with the test OVR. Resulting in being eternal releases every year in all likelyhood. But in combination with the above group of slightly better sprinters point to an area where improvements seem possible.
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters! |
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| knockout |
Posted on 19-11-2024 19:12
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Also there is an average OVR increase of +0,27 across all contracted riders.
Every single team gains more OVR than they lose.
The percentages of contracted riders with an OVR of 74+ rises from 44,9% to 53,2%.
So these changes lead to a bit of an OVR inflation where every team has less cap space left after renewals than previously where i would rather keep the average OVR similar to the current situation.
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters! |
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| roturn |
Posted on 20-11-2024 10:11
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knockout wrote:
Also there is an average OVR increase of +0,27 across all contracted riders.
Every single team gains more OVR than they lose.
The percentages of contracted riders with an OVR of 74+ rises from 44,9% to 53,2%.
So these changes lead to a bit of an OVR inflation where every team has less cap space left after renewals than previously where i would rather keep the average OVR similar to the current situation.
This is easy to update and planned to do so anyway whenever I am as happy as possible with everything else.
So basically have the new OVL being reduced for each rider by ~0,27 without new jumps or fix minus. |
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| Ulrich Ulriksen |
Posted on 08-12-2024 22:50
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I have been playing with this on and off and I think it looks really good. Most time when I found an anomaly I liked the new value better.
The one thing I did note is that it feels like the top cobblers and the top TTers are underrated versus the rest. Really this is just at the top end, the gaps seem less further down the rank.
Pedersen, Wisniowski and Per finished 13, 3 and 7th in points last year (average 7ish) but their OVL ranks are 8, 14 and 21 (average 14ish). After that it probably matches up better. Gerts is pretty close.
Similarly, on the TTers, Wurtz and Ganna are 21 and 68th in rank but finished 12th and 26th in points.
I think it is the sprinters that are too high but that is hard to evaluate given the weirdness in sprints.
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| Fabianski |
Posted on 16-02-2025 13:19
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Will have to look into the relative ratings in more detail, but one thing that's definitely wrong is Pidcock getting a lower OVL than Schmid. I don't think that's Pidcock being underrated too much, rather Schmid still clearly overrated. Compared to e.g. Vansevenant who isn't that much better in main stats (-2 Mo, +1 Hi), Schmid is the worse rider by far looking at the results.
And also in a H2H with Pidcock, Schmid loses in a mountain stage like Portugal, or in a hybrid stage like in Scandinavia recently, despite having better stats on paper.
I know Pidcock is an extremely difficult rider to stat, given that he performs just so much above what you'd expect from a rider with the highest main stat far below 79, and it might require some testing on the new version to see whether he's still so strong, or Schmid still so weak, but I definitely don't see any argument for the Brit to get a pretty clearly lower OVL than Mauro.
Will try to take a closer look at the puncheurs when having more time (and better infrastructure) - in particular the importance of Mo in their Mo/Hi ratio.
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| AbhishekLFC |
Posted on 15-03-2025 15:03
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Directeur Sportif
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The new DB with updated OVL and Medium Mountain stat is available here: https://pcmdaily....Added.xlsm
Old OVL is column AC
New OVL is column AD
Difference of OVLs is column AE
Medium Mountain is column AF
This DB can be used for statgains. Please post here if you spot any mistakes/misses (please do not compare riders as it is not possible to make the DB 100% reflect the scoring from PCM).
In the pre-renewals DB, the Old OVL and the Difference columns will be removed. The position of the Medium Mountain column might change. Currently, it is placed after OVL so that no changes were needed to the Macros.
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 02-04-2025 23:12
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| Fabianski |
Posted on 15-03-2025 15:23
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I don't know if this was already the case in the preview versions for the new OVL, but I've got one question: I think we noticed that the top TTers actually were too cheap for their scoring potential. And now some of the top TTers (Würtz, Ganna, Zmorka, Mullen - basically everyone but Wirtgen and Dunbar who are great allrounders) get an even lower OVL, allowing them to do more races? Don't really understand this.
Also, it looks like some of the great hybrids get an OVL deduction, even though at least the current game version is perfect for them. Areruya -0.74, MAL -0.65, even Herklotz -0.73; I know puncheurs' OVLs have been reduced across the band, but reducing the top riders' OVL feels a bit weird.
Also, Pidcock -1.26 is just
Anyway, thanks for doing this, guess it's a good base to get started with and then maybe do some tweaks after the next 2 seasons or so. If performance gets more and more important in determining the wage, OVL isn't that crucial anymore, but still don't like Herklotz et al. getting more RDs
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| SotD |
Posted on 15-03-2025 18:17
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Kinda agree with Fabianski here. As a TT heavy team I obviously like the idea of having cheaper riders, but I don't really think riders like Ioannidis and Kiriakidis should be below their current wages (140K and 110K) tbh. They both take a drop of 0,-35-0,40. Christapopoulos on the other hand takes an increase of 0,31.
There's no doubt that the latter might be too low, but he's no way near the quality of the two before, and now the gap is reduced by 0,65-0,70, which doesn't feel right.
My team really suck at MM. Can someone explain a bit more to me how they work? I suspect it is something I have to address in the upcoming off season with Spanopoulos being my strongest rider at 76MM. I would expect that level to be medium CT tier 
Also, Kiriakidis is in the DB with 77TT, which I don't hope correlates to reality as he was trained to 78 and I commented on that very thing not once but twice in the start of the season, where the same mistake occured.
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| knockout |
Posted on 15-03-2025 18:43
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Fabianski wrote:
Also, it looks like some of the great hybrids get an OVL deduction, even though at least the current game version is perfect for them. Areruya -0.74, MAL -0.65, even Herklotz -0.73; I know puncheurs' OVLs have been reduced across the band, but reducing the top riders' OVL feels a bit weird.
Also, Pidcock -1.26 is just
I suspect that an analysis shows that the point scoring of mo/hi hybrids was lower than their OVR might suggest. At least a rider like MAL always felt like his OVR was overrated compared to his point scoring in comparison with other types of riders like e.g. Wisniowski or the top stage racers. Whether its because my planning was underwhelming, the calendar was simply not in favor of that rider type or the OVR was too high can be up to debate but he rarely got to the ranking positions that his OVR suggested. Whether its Schmid, Hirschi or further down the rankings with guys like Battistella, a lot of these hybrids were slightly on the more expensive side of things so imo good to change those.
SotD wrote:
My team really suck at MM. Can someone explain a bit more to me how they work? I suspect it is something I have to address in the upcoming off season with Spanopoulos being my strongest rider at 76MM. I would expect that level to be medium CT tier
=([@Mountain]+[@Hill])/2
Is the formula thats used in the file. Apparently rounded up for every .5 case.
A lot of your top climbers have like 72HI so thats why you dont have high MM values...
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters! |
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| SotD |
Posted on 15-03-2025 18:45
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I worded that question poorly I see. I understand the math behind it, but not the stat vs. the game engine. 
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| cunego59 |
Posted on 16-03-2025 10:27
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SotD wrote:
I worded that question poorly I see. I understand the math behind it, but not the stat vs. the game engine.
It's basically just an extension of the previous hill/mountain split with the same mechanic. So, mountain still determines performance on lower-intensity efforts going uphill, hill on high-intensity efforts, and now median mountain occupies an effort range between the two.
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 16-03-2025 13:52
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Agreed with the others, seeing Kamna getting a major OVL decrease is kind of wild, when with the right planning guys like that already overscore their salary significantly. But as we always have, we'll adjust.
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| quadsas |
Posted on 16-03-2025 15:02
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Ay I've no problem with my TTers being less expensive 
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| roturn |
Posted on 17-03-2025 06:45
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Regarding hybrids and TT riders:
TT: A bit testing is needed but plan is to get wages right by performance ratio.
Hybrids: Some clear issues here with Pidcock being most extreme example. Problem is that we wanted to get rid of all those IFs that basically had a small chance to train a stat and get a lower OVL afterwards due to several IF formulas to get hybrids right couple years ago, where Cavagna was a similar problem to the regular formulas.
So basically most hybrids had a straight +1 OVL in comparison to other riders. This moves many hybrids down -1 now and hence the bigger deduction as they were overrated before in comparison to the actual main stats.
So without this riders like Areruya -0.74, MAL -0.65, even Herklotz -0.73 likely stat wise alone get an OVL boost of 0,35-0,27 but the deduction of the -1 OVL, which others didn`t have like Lecuisinier, Kudus etc.
Pidcock, Schmid, Vansevenant all had this +1 as well I guess, which now moves them down. (For Schmid at least I guess so, can`t say for sure without checking). But Pidcocks pure stat line just not fully working with his game performance.
Here a mix of performance ratio must hopefully balance this out at least wage wise while future adjustments on PCM24 engine might help as well. |
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| jt1109 |
Posted on 17-03-2025 09:14
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roturn wrote:
Regarding hybrids and TT riders:
TT: A bit testing is needed but plan is to get wages right by performance ratio.
Hybrids: Some clear issues here with Pidcock being most extreme example. Problem is that we wanted to get rid of all those IFs that basically had a small chance to train a stat and get a lower OVL afterwards due to several IF formulas to get hybrids right couple years ago, where Cavagna was a similar problem to the regular formulas.
So basically most hybrids had a straight +1 OVL in comparison to other riders. This moves many hybrids down -1 now and hence the bigger deduction as they were overrated before in comparison to the actual main stats.
So without this riders like Areruya -0.74, MAL -0.65, even Herklotz -0.73 likely stat wise alone get an OVL boost of 0,35-0,27 but the deduction of the -1 OVL, which others didn`t have like Lecuisinier, Kudus etc.
Pidcock, Schmid, Vansevenant all had this +1 as well I guess, which now moves them down. (For Schmid at least I guess so, can`t say for sure without checking). But Pidcocks pure stat line just not fully working with his game performance.
Here a mix of performance ratio must hopefully balance this out at least wage wise while future adjustments on PCM24 engine might help as well.
I know this might be a way too basic theory. Still, could we incorporate overall points scored into the OVL of riders by adding a percentage of their points.
To stop guys like Herklotz from being hugely penalised I would CAP the top of this so there's only a maximum amount that can be added to your OVL or Maybe even have a formula where your current OVL is taking into account so the more points you've scored against your base OVL the higher the impact.
It would have guys like Pidcock etc.. having their RDs cut and give some more meaning to why there racing less other then we are just messing around with the OVL again.
This would have the added benefit that riders who underperformed would have increased RDs the next season, making the gamble on them seem more appealing
Edited by jt1109 on 17-03-2025 11:10
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