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Very big gaps on mountain/hill-finishes
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| Lachi |
Posted on 30-06-2015 16:43
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8516
Joined: 29-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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skylax wrote:
Jesleyh wrote:
And that'd be quite a difficult thing to implement for PCM..
What leads you to that conclusion?
The stages would be much bigger. Let's take the race Milano - San Remo which covers 120km x 180km on the map. (=21600 million sqm). In the game using a scale of 1:10 the map only covers (216 million sqm) so it is 100 times smaller in the game.
Of course the stage makers don't have to create the whole map but the stages would be at least 20 time bigger than now, which means it would take about 20 times as long to load a stage. Not to speak about the file sizes. Variant packs would be around 1 TB and you could order them on a external HDD. |
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 30-06-2015 16:45
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Tour de France Champion
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kioMsU wrote:
Jesleyh wrote:
That's partly because they have a smaller scale.
And that'd be quite a difficult thing to implement for PCM..
But not impossible? Look at Tour de France 2012, it was 1/2 scale and it was great. If cyanide dont want smaller scale for "arcade" players they could create a "Simulation" Mode with smaller scale, better AI etc.
Tour de France 2012 had 21 stages, maybe 30 with DLCs.
PCM has, how many, 400 stages? That seems impossible yes, unless Cyanide's budget increases by 1000% or something 
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 30-06-2015 16:58
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Jesleyh wrote:
kioMsU wrote:
Jesleyh wrote:
That's partly because they have a smaller scale.
And that'd be quite a difficult thing to implement for PCM..
But not impossible? Look at Tour de France 2012, it was 1/2 scale and it was great. If cyanide dont want smaller scale for "arcade" players they could create a "Simulation" Mode with smaller scale, better AI etc.
Tour de France 2012 had 21 stages, maybe 30 with DLCs.
PCM has, how many, 400 stages? That seems impossible yes, unless Cyanide's budget increases by 1000% or something
This is a good idea. 
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| florian96 |
Posted on 30-06-2015 17:46
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Under 23
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I think the problem is Cyanide made this one to realistic. 
1/10 scale of the track, 1/10 scale of the gap, so we see a gap that is for us 1/1 on screen, but it's 1/10. So what we see is not what we get. Or is it? This is so confusing.
But I stick to the point that Cyanide should calculate the gaps with a different time if it's even possible. The Racetime of the Stages show some really realistic times.
And the 1/10 scale is OK I mean if it's 1/5 it would be double as long to race a stage in 3d Mode when you plan to play the whole season it may get frustrating. And sure the time to load it or the size of the files. |
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| kioMsU |
Posted on 30-06-2015 17:58
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Under 23
Posts: 75
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Jesleyh wrote:
kioMsU wrote:
Jesleyh wrote:
That's partly because they have a smaller scale.
And that'd be quite a difficult thing to implement for PCM..
But not impossible? Look at Tour de France 2012, it was 1/2 scale and it was great. If cyanide dont want smaller scale for "arcade" players they could create a "Simulation" Mode with smaller scale, better AI etc.
Tour de France 2012 had 21 stages, maybe 30 with DLCs.
PCM has, how many, 400 stages? That seems impossible yes, unless Cyanide's budget increases by 1000% or something
Ok, maybe not 1/2 but 1/5 is perfect for PCM, 1/10 is too fast for me. |
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| Lachi |
Posted on 30-06-2015 18:06
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8516
Joined: 29-06-2007
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There exists a free cycling manager game which uses 1:1 scale. It does not take very long to complete the stage because you can increase the speed up to 128*. |
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| kioMsU |
Posted on 30-06-2015 18:11
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Under 23
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Lachi wrote:
There exists a free cycling manager game which uses 1:1 scale. It does not take very long to complete the stage because you can increase the speed up to 128*.
Umm what? Where? |
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| Lachi |
Posted on 30-06-2015 18:21
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Grand Tour Champion
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Joined: 29-06-2007
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https://www.pccicl... |
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| skylax |
Posted on 30-06-2015 21:23
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Under 23
Posts: 57
Joined: 11-07-2010
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Lachi wrote:
skylax wrote:
Jesleyh wrote:
And that'd be quite a difficult thing to implement for PCM..
What leads you to that conclusion?
The stages would be much bigger. Let's take the race Milano - San Remo which covers 120km x 180km on the map. (=21600 million sqm). In the game using a scale of 1:10 the map only covers (216 million sqm) so it is 100 times smaller in the game.
Of course the stage makers don't have to create the whole map but the stages would be at least 20 time bigger than now, which means it would take about 20 times as long to load a stage. Not to speak about the file sizes. Variant packs would be around 1 TB and you could order them on a external HDD.
Well, I think you let Cyanide off the hook to easily here. Sure, if you keep the structure as it is, improving on the scale seems like a bad idea. But there are many things to take into account:
1. The architectural design of the PCM seems somewhat unoptimized. The loading times are pretty ridiculous compared to what is actually depicted on screen in the game. Think of car racing/rally-racing/plane flying games, that cover about the same size of map and load faster. PCM doesn't have that many textures and with sophisticated optimization or another approach, the file size and the loading times could be considerably lower of what they are now. Just because Cyanide made the PCM the way it is, doesn't mean it is the best way or state.
2. Problem solving demands creativity. How about lowering the scale only in certain situations like mountains, sprints etc. I don't know whether this would make the game feel awkward, but I am pretty sure that there can be good implementations by creative people.
3. The idea with the decelerated clock after crossing the finish line is not bad and actually seems rather easy to implement as well. Just let the clock run a little slower, determined by a multiplier that can be modded by users. I am aware that this kind of screws with the time gaps during the game as they would not be conclusive anymore. But again: creativity! I am certain there is a way to keep the scale of the maps as they are and just manipulate the time a tad.
I think the approach of saying: Cyanide can't do this or that, because their game is not like it, is pretty apologetic. For paying $35 every year, customers can at least pursuade game producers to make the game the majority wants. They obviously don't put too many working hours into this game, but if everyone is just content with how things are, then nobody deserves any better. |
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| Lachi |
Posted on 30-06-2015 21:41
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8516
Joined: 29-06-2007
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Race games don't have 400 different tracks which are 200 km, so you cannot compare them with PCM.
As far as I know, games like flight simulator or GTA load the level while you move. This is not possible in PCM because the riders can be all over the stage and you can switch to all riders.
Of course it would be possible to program a game engine which can do all that you request but like Jesleyh said this would exceed the budget. |
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| skylax |
Posted on 30-06-2015 21:58
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Under 23
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Joined: 11-07-2010
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Well, this game "The Crew" actually depicts all of North America if I understood correctly. I don't know much about the loading times, but I have the feeling that people would be pretty annoyed if it takes 4min to load the game.
Concerning loading the "level while being on the move", this could be implemented in PCM as well, just don't let the riders be anywhere on the map. The game could feature a broom waggon that swipes everyone off the streets who is out of the time limit, therefore freeing up the parts of the race that have been passed. You only need to account for the map that the first and the last rider is on (and in between of course), that is actually not that much. In GTA or in games such "The Crew" you also move a lot faster over the map containing at least the same amount of detail compared to the rather slow speed of PCM.
I don't know anything about Cyanide's budget, I just think using that as an excuse in a forum is an apologetic way of supressing valid criticism. Cyanide developed or tweaked several engines over the last 8 years focusing mainly on graphics. I don't think a request for a resourceful utilization of other ideas is too far fetched even for Cyanide. After all, I think it is mainly the quality of their game that keeps the sale's record as low as it is. There are other game companies out there serving niche demands that sell a lot better simply because they do a better job at putting together a decent game.
Edited by skylax on 30-06-2015 22:00
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 01-07-2015 00:50
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15274
Joined: 21-07-2012
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How is budget not a proper reason?
You'd be surprised how many times Ubisoft's budget is Cyanide's, of course Ubisoft has way more opportunities to develop such things.
Cyanide focussing mainly on graphics? Hm I'm not sure if I agree on that either. Of course Cyanide has never been perfect, but it is a matter of lowering expectations, don't expect a FM quality game from a company with a budget like Cyanide 
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 01-07-2015 02:11
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
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@skylax: For sure, PCM isn't very well optimized and I also would love to see 1:1 stages, but I don't think this has a high priority. First of, they need to fix the AI. Also, most PCM players have a crappy laptop or PC. So Cyanide would develop their game for a minority. That wouldn't work...
Also, you mentioned "The Crew". Their Map isn't really as big as the USA. It's around 100km from east to west coast. And Its also pretty generic and empty at times.
Others also mention Cyanides low bugdet. I think thats a main reason. A company who produces games like PCM is nothing compared to Ubisoft, 2K or Activision. Even if they mostly put more love in their games.
I only agree on one point. They need to optimise PCM more, maybe develop a new engine. That will for sure cost time and money, and I'm not sure if Cyanide wants to pay the costs...
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 01-07-2015 07:20
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World Champion
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skylax wrote:
I don't know anything about Cyanide's budget, I just think using that as an excuse in a forum is an apologetic way of supressing valid criticism. Cyanide developed or tweaked several engines over the last 8 years focusing mainly on graphics. I don't think a request for a resourceful utilization of other ideas is too far fetched even for Cyanide. After all, I think it is mainly the quality of their game that keeps the sale's record as low as it is. There are other game companies out there serving niche demands that sell a lot better simply because they do a better job at putting together a decent game.
Get used to it, because this is an excuse for everything horrible that Cyanide has done with PCM in recent years. I wonder how they could make better games few years back with even smaller budget with these logics.
Also dont listen to Jesleyh in this case, he is a Cyanide fanboy and unpaid marketing force.
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| Ton1Mart1n |
Posted on 01-07-2015 08:00
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Domestique
Posts: 400
Joined: 14-06-2011
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Cyanide needs investors or co-operation with larger game manufacturos to actually go a step further. Imagine if 2K or EA were willing the invest in game of cycling. It would improve much more than it does now.
In 2 years, the gameplay havent improved a bit. If they keep going like this, i'm afraid they would loose big margins.
But of course I will always love Cycling Manager no matter what so they will never loose me 
“When it’s hurting you, that’s when you can make a difference”
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| Lachi |
Posted on 01-07-2015 10:21
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 8516
Joined: 29-06-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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skylax wrote:
...I just think using that as an excuse in a forum is an apologetic way of suppressing valid criticism.
I am not suppressing anything here. I just post my opinion. And my opinion is that you don't see what's behind it.
For example Cyanide has an agreement with A.S.O. regarding the TdF franchise. Of course I don't know the contract but you can be sure that A.S.O. does not care how the career plays or how the development system works. But they do care that the game looks good. I also think that Cyanide puts too much time into the looks of the game but if they cannot advertise the game with the TdF logo there might not even be a game at all.
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| skylax |
Posted on 01-07-2015 10:22
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Under 23
Posts: 57
Joined: 11-07-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Jesleyh wrote:
How is budget not a proper reason?
You'd be surprised how many times Ubisoft's budget is Cyanide's, of course Ubisoft has way more opportunities to develop such things.
Cyanide focussing mainly on graphics? Hm I'm not sure if I agree on that either. Of course Cyanide has never been perfect, but it is a matter of lowering expectations, don't expect a FM quality game from a company with a budget like Cyanide
I think you would be suprised how much of that higher budget is allocated to marketing. AAA games have marketing budgets 3 times as big as production costs. Cyanide's marketing and sales budget is rather low which I am thankful for. However, marketing wouldn't really pay dividents since the quality of the product is below market average for sports simulations or even sports managers.
There are so many low budget games out there, that are well programmed and creative (Crusader Kings 2, Europa Universalis 3, Prison Architect etc).
I wrote that the changes of the engine over the last years have mainly focused on producing better graphics. To me it is a matter of priorities. The management part is horrendous, this year even more so than the last years. Parts of the game simply don't make any sense (training, scouting), whereas the graphics are pretty good looking.
Also, you mentioned "The Crew". Their Map isn't really as big as the USA. It's around 100km from east to west coast. And Its also pretty generic and empty at times.
Well, the map for PCM is also generic and empty. Couple of houses, fans, mountains, flowers nothing special there. I don't want to compare the two games, it was just an example of how big landmasses can be implemented in a game to state it is not impossible to tune the scale (and yet optimize!). |
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| florian96 |
Posted on 01-07-2015 14:58
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Under 23
Posts: 64
Joined: 24-07-2009
PCM$: 200.00
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Great discussion is going on here, hopefully Cyanide is recognizing that.
Too bad I don't know the guys from Cyanide personally to understand more of their thinking and the budget situation.
This year with the new Be a Pro Mode Cyanide did that what most of the people were praying for. So for me, if i were Cyanide, the next logical step would be optimizing the game!
There are so many features but they all don't really work perfekt and not completely worked out.
So a PCM 16 with no new features but lots of optimizations on AI, rider training, equipments, fitness plans, long-term attribute changes on training, short-term attribute changes on Goals, Weather,... and so on.
That would be something I could agree with for next year.
And the last to work on would be the graphics, if it even needs an update.
Edited by florian96 on 01-07-2015 15:00
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 01-07-2015 16:50
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
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To be honest, I don't hope that EA or 2K invest in PCM. EA has ruined franchises with Microtransactions and with working exacly against the fans. I don't want a PCM where I need to pay 3,99€ for Etixx and again 1,99€ for Tony Martin since he has stats over 80. Also I don't want WC variants for 5,99€ or something else. EA just wants money. As does Ubisoft, because with Ubisoft, our PCM 15 wouldn't be playable right now, because they always mess up the launch. At least we would've gotten awesome render trailers. 2K? I like 2K, kinda, but thats just because of the humour they put into their games. But PCM with humour? Not my cup of tea.
Smaller Studios like Cyanide put way more love into their games. For sure, they cant afford all licenses or maybe they are not capable of improving the gameplay. But you can ask Jesley. They listen to their Beta-guys. Big studios clearly do not.
Just a few examples what franchises EA destroyed or where they destroyed hopes of the real fans:
Battlefield
Star Wars
Need For Speed
Dead Space
Sim City
Medal of Honor
Resident Evil
Burnout
Command and Conquer
James Bond
Syndicate
Where Ubisoft dissappointed:
The Crew
Assasins Creed Unity
Far Cry 4
Rayman
Ghost Recon
Watch Dogs
Splinter Cell
Rainbow Six
Now 2K...:
Bioshock
Borderlands
The Elder Scrolls
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| cosmic |
Posted on 01-07-2015 21:57
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Stagiare
Posts: 171
Joined: 28-06-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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This is purely a question of optimization and quality of coding. Even in the worst of cases, all riders will generally finish within an hour of the winner, which if you imagine a 6 hour race would require you to keep 1/6 of the stage loaded at all times on a 1:1 scale, if you load as you go along, it wouldn't require that much more than keeping a full 1:10 scaled stage loaded. Do a 1:2 scale and you can push requirements below loading a full 1:10 scale stage.
Additionally, PCM has fairly limited texture resolutions, and relatively few and frequently reused models (riders, bikes, spectators, road etc), which means limited memory requirements (loading times are generally a result of needing to move data from disk to memory).
With Be a Pro it'd be even easier, since you're not allowed to see beyond your own group, and would only need to load and render graphics around the player's toon.
Edited by cosmic on 01-07-2015 21:57
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