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The Difficult Topics
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 04:59
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 05-10-2012 08:00
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Nice summary Levi. And i agree with you completly (of course my opinion is very shallow, as i dont live in US).
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| miggi133 |
Posted on 05-10-2012 11:24
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Damn you avin, you beat me to the point with your arguments that all "Americans" are de facto immigrants (and as soon as the opportunity arises they claim to be irish) and that the first non aboriginal people populating in Australia were indeed prisoners...
As for the US case: Im not surprised that many people sneak into the country and avoid paying income taxes etc. Afterall, you guys promote illegal immigration. It is not that easy to get a green card tbh. The family of a friend of mine applied for Green Cards more than one and a half years ago, and they are still waiting... And after the Illegals entered the country, American business owners profit massively from them by paying them less then minimum wage and if you want to get rid of them you threaten them with Homeland Security, FBI, CIA, KGB or whatever secret service is on the rise again...
If Immigration would be easier, more people would legitimatly immigrate and thus would be liable to pay taxes. The only negative point of it would be a crash in the economy, as people would not be able to exploit Day Workers or keep their Nanny on a short leach. All that short of Restaurant chaines such as Taco Bell or any other Mexican like fast food restauran t in the US that "offers" Mexicans a chance in the land of opportunities...
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 05-10-2012 11:37
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About the green card, I think they've reduced the number by four in 10 years, or figures along those lines.
It's going to be problematic soon enough when, IIRC, 40 % of their top 500 firms have been created by first or second generation immigrants. |
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 05-10-2012 13:10
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I see what you guys are saying. I see your point now.I also agree with Aquarius that everything is twisted so there isn't a moderate side to the parties. Which is something I personally hate, and by seeing my political party, you can probably see why.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| miggi133 |
Posted on 05-10-2012 16:42
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To be honest, If you think your election campaigns are twisted and messed up have a look at an irish one. Our two main parties used to be one (Sinn Fein) and they just split because of a dispute over an oath of Allegiance to Britain in the 1920's...
The more nationalistic half, thought it was Inexcusable that the Oath of allegiance was still in place and that it represented a loss to GB in the war of independence because they would still take an Oath to the King of England...
The ones that saw the peace treaty as legit, claimed that the peace treaty was vital and since Michael Collins had rewritten the Oath, there was no mention of the King in it but just a pledge to the irish free state and that it was acknowledge its position to England as A dominion.
So essentially our two main parties split over a single paragraph in the Anglo-Irish Peace Treaty, meaning they have the same political program, same agenda and just cant get closure with the past of a minor formality instead of constitunional differences.
In comparison to that, the American Political system is variable, eventhough they essentially only have a 2 party system, which is still quite bad in comparison to the multiparty systems in Europe et al.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 05-10-2012 17:18
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Unfortunately it is not only about the system.in czech republic where i vote nowadays,we have like 10 parties at least and absolute majority of them are full of thieves and former communists 
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 06-10-2012 10:13
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The illusion of voting. I guess it goes for every country in the world. Well, not all, in some they don't even give you the illusion. |
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| cactus-jack |
Posted on 06-10-2012 11:27
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What do you mean by "the illusion of voting"? I think I see your point, but you might need to clarify.
There's a fine line between "psychotherapist" and "psycho the rapist"
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 06-10-2012 21:32
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Well, the illusion that your vote counts. The illusion that you can make a real difference in politics by voting. The illusion that you really have a choice.
On America, I quote from the movie Waking Life by Richard Linklater: "Do you want the puppet on the left, or on the right?"
I hope you get what I mean, it's hard to explain in a foreign language and written down. |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 08-10-2012 06:13
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Ian got it completly right, at least that is also my point of view. I can choose to vote the thief from the left wing, ot thief from the right wing of the political spectrum. Only remaining options are thief from the middle or skip the elections. Sad...
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 08-10-2012 06:23
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I guess that depends on where your country ranks in terms of corruption.
Of course there are many corrupt politicians here as well, but we (not I, obviously) voted for a socialist government lately. It was either that, either keep the right-wing party in charge.
Difference between both ? Both have to deal with a huge debt, etc. but the left-wing party chooses to increase expenses and taxes, whereas the right-wing party would have chosen the opposite for that same objective.
So, yes, voting is changing things. |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 08-10-2012 06:28
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Czech republic is drowning in corruption last few years, actually it was probably always like that but the stolen amounts of money are larger now and it seems like it is everywhere in the politics. At least it seems that the judiciary and the police starts to get rid of it, but it could be the extremly long and curvy path...
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 08-10-2012 07:05
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Thing that bothers me is that you vote for "representatives" of the people, but that's bullshit. They mess with your head with campaigns and a lot of horsecrap, and then you vote for them because they've screwed you up good enough, you vote for them and they do whatever they want to do and fill their pockets while doing it.
For example, the general rule in USA is: he with the most campaign money will win because he can screw the citizens the best using psychological techniques. The best-looking in a debat will win, not the one who makes the most sense. |
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 08-10-2012 07:09
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Sorry to double post but a whole other thing:
A galaxy is nearing us and we will crash. We have about 4 billion years left, though.
It makes me wonder, why does everyone keep going and trying to build a future or whatever... It will never last. One day, only one man will remain, and then that man will be gone. Why are we so persistent? Why trouble ourselves? We're only here for a blink of the eye, after all. (because we'll never last another 4 billion year, of course.) |
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| Levi4life |
Posted on 08-10-2012 07:44
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Ian Butler wrote:
Thing that bothers me is that you vote for "representatives" of the people, but that's bullshit. They mess with your head with campaigns and a lot of horsecrap, and then you vote for them because they've screwed you up good enough, you vote for them and they do whatever they want to do and fill their pockets while doing it.
For example, the general rule in USA is: he with the most campaign money will win because he can screw the citizens the best using psychological techniques. The best-looking in a debat will win, not the one who makes the most sense.
Representative Democracy is for the best. Well, I suspect that a benevolent and enlightened monarchy is for the best, but I can't really think of a Utopian philosopher king off the top of my head. The alternatives to a representative democracy are more and less democracy. More, meaning direct democracy in my mind, is messy and cumbersome. Less would mean some sort of dictatorial regime. Representative Democracy is far from perfect, but it's a decent compromise. Don't let perfect be the envy of the good, or however the saying goes.
I have a Nigerian mate who told me his father had considered going into politics in his younger days, but declined given the instability. I asked him if he thought things were getting better and he said yes. Institutions are all important to determining how a country functions. Countries with good institutions prosper, an example being Belgium. Extractive institutions can tear a country apart, an example being the Congo. The problems you perceive are what I would call first world problems. Not to defend our US politicians, but they could be so much worse. In my eyes, so long as we have functioning checks and balances, the problems will be sorted out.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 08-10-2012 08:05
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Sorry Levi, but than again it seems to me that you reduced the problem to the money and prosperity of the state (which is not excluded in states with corruption, but i know it could be much worse than in Europe), meanwhile i would like to see politicians who has more moral principles and mainly bigger responsibility for their actions.
Engligtened monarchy is my dream to be honest, but only if i would be that philosopher on the throne. 
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| Levi4life |
Posted on 08-10-2012 09:04
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The assumption I was making was that developed countries have higher standards of living than underdeveloped countries and that this higher standard of living is the general goal. Certainly it's not all about development. There was plenty of development in the gilded age, but that doesn't mean standards of living were enviable. A balance must be struck between development and the general welfare, and the state is the only institution that can create that balance.
Back to my Nigerian buddy, he was having a friendly tit for tat with a Mexican friend, which started out with phrases like "blood diamond baby" and "lazy Mexican" being thrown around, along with a few other derogatory terms you might think of. It ended up a serious discussion about the less than symbiotic relationship between Shell and the Nigerian people. This is a case in which development is very much occurring, however it is via an extractive institution and general welfare is on the back burner.
Essential to good institutions are good people. In lieu of an enlightened monarch, representative democracy is the best way to get good institutions. People generally tend to vote for good, well intentioned representatives. These good, well intentioned reps tend to be successful, educated, and able to bring in money for their campaigns.
I'd prefer publicly financed campaigns, but until that is mandated here in the US(which is unlikely to happen any time soon) it's a sort of arms race. While the publicly funded system is in place, it's not required. Both Romney and Obama are, in my opinion, good and well intentioned, morally principled people. To get where they want to be they have to win though. It's disconcerting seeing people like the Koch brothers pouring tens of millions into campaigns (and indubitably buying influence) but that's just the way it is.
At the very least conservatives get to finally point to trickle down economics in action. Millionaires and billionaires who buy elections can't do it by paying off politicians overtly, they have to put the money into political adds, signs, t-shirts and trappings of that sort. It is the best of times for TV/radio stations.
Edited by Levi4life on 08-10-2012 09:07
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 08-10-2012 11:39
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Ian Butler wrote:
Sorry to double post but a whole other thing:
A galaxy is nearing us and we will crash. We have about 4 billion years left, though.
It makes me wonder, why does everyone keep going and trying to build a future or whatever... It will never last. One day, only one man will remain, and then that man will be gone. Why are we so persistent? Why trouble ourselves? We're only here for a blink of the eye, after all. (because we'll never last another 4 billion year, of course.)
We're very evolved living beings. Evolving from a single cell bacteria into what we are now.
We're meant to reproduce and perpetuate the existence of our specie, that's deep in our genes.
See how we have developed in the last 20 or 30 000 years ? What's 4 billion years in comparison. Earth will probably be done then, if not much earlier, but here's hoping we'll then be able to travel through space and live on other planets/solar systems/galaxies. |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 08-10-2012 11:48
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This is how we will look like probably in that time 
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| CountArach |
Posted on 08-10-2012 11:51
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MOISTURISE MOISTURISE!
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