the only way to fix the hilly classics is smaller teams
at this point the domestiques of some teams are so strong they can neutralize any attack.. and make the pace so hard that attacking is not even a possibility. There is no power left for it. So it looks like a boring race with a sprint.
While if you are in the peloton you are probably dead with 40km to go. And the sprint is just a sprint of dead people.
We really need smaller teams in big classics. The control is killing hilly classics long ago. And this year we even saw that PR and RVV are becoming more controlled now too...
ruben wrote:
the only way to fix the hilly classics is smaller teams
at this point the domestiques of some teams are so strong they can neutralize any attack.. and make the pace so hard that attacking is not even a possibility. There is no power left for it. So it looks like a boring race with a sprint.
While if you are in the peloton you are probably dead with 40km to go. And the sprint is just a sprint of dead people.
We really need smaller teams in big classics. The control is killing hilly classics long ago. And this year we even saw that PR and RVV are becoming more controlled now too...
Smaller teams, in my opinion will cause other problems. F.e. every team would just send their best domestique in the break. The break will never get caught, since no-one could bring them back, since the only guys who are better, are the team leaders.
ruben wrote:
the only way to fix the hilly classics is smaller teams
at this point the domestiques of some teams are so strong they can neutralize any attack.. and make the pace so hard that attacking is not even a possibility. There is no power left for it. So it looks like a boring race with a sprint.
While if you are in the peloton you are probably dead with 40km to go. And the sprint is just a sprint of dead people.
We really need smaller teams in big classics. The control is killing hilly classics long ago. And this year we even saw that PR and RVV are becoming more controlled now too...
Smaller teams, in my opinion will cause other problems. F.e. every team would just send their best domestique in the break. The break will never get caught, since no-one could bring them back, since the only guys who are better, are the team leaders.
I would't say that's a problem. It'd get more tactical that way, which is also interesting imo.
I don't agree, if Van Avermaet was allowed to go with Fuglsang, there would've been a different race. Same for Martin not going with Nibbles, but well, that one payed off. I'd the fault of the team tactics, not the number of riders.
Just noticed that this was Betancur's second top 50 of the season, the first being a Tirreno stage. Coming into form?
Didn't get to see the race so can't comment on that - happy to see a rainbow win though as well as hearing Fuglsang try a couple of times on the radio. Always want the rainbow jersey to get a big win, though I suspect this might not be an Amstel that goes over in history...
ruben wrote:
the only way to fix the hilly classics is smaller teams
at this point the domestiques of some teams are so strong they can neutralize any attack.. and make the pace so hard that attacking is not even a possibility. There is no power left for it. So it looks like a boring race with a sprint.
While if you are in the peloton you are probably dead with 40km to go. And the sprint is just a sprint of dead people.
We really need smaller teams in big classics. The control is killing hilly classics long ago. And this year we even saw that PR and RVV are becoming more controlled now too...
Smaller teams, in my opinion will cause other problems. F.e. every team would just send their best domestique in the break. The break will never get caught, since no-one could bring them back, since the only guys who are better, are the team leaders.
Then the team leaders would have to chase in that situation wouldn't they? Would make things a hell of a lot more interesting than just sticking a train of 7/8 riders on the front of the peloton and waiting until the last 3km (that's a good day) for any action to happen.
Ban race radios and power meters, and make teams smaller, and you're guaranteed to have better racing; simple as that.
ruben wrote:
the only way to fix the hilly classics is smaller teams
at this point the domestiques of some teams are so strong they can neutralize any attack.. and make the pace so hard that attacking is not even a possibility. There is no power left for it. So it looks like a boring race with a sprint.
While if you are in the peloton you are probably dead with 40km to go. And the sprint is just a sprint of dead people.
We really need smaller teams in big classics. The control is killing hilly classics long ago. And this year we even saw that PR and RVV are becoming more controlled now too...
Smaller teams, in my opinion will cause other problems. F.e. every team would just send their best domestique in the break. The break will never get caught, since no-one could bring them back, since the only guys who are better, are the team leaders.
Then the team leaders would have to chase in that situation wouldn't they? Would make things a hell of a lot more interesting than just sticking a train of 7/8 riders on the front of the peloton and waiting until the last 3km (that's a good day) for any action to happen.
Ban race radios and power meters, and make teams smaller, and you're guaranteed to have better racing; simple as that.
Why should the team leaders chase? they have a man up front. Somehow I am satisfied with the racing. especially from today, so I don't see something there should be changed...
A race like AGR would have to have significant shake up to change the way it races. With so many punchers now having sprints or sprinters who can climb there is no need for most teams to race any other way than for a burst up the Cauberg then dash for the line. The Cauberg is just not difficult enough whilst the preceeding climbs are not raced hard enough to shed riders. It's just the way the sport is going.
Again with Fleche. The Huy is such a wall and there is not enough significant climbing before hand. You could go early but if you don't have a significant gap you will msot likely be soundly beaten on the final climb. Riders would much rather just blast full gas for a couple of minutes than for 30minutes in a long range attack. They might be saving energy after AGR and pre-LBL.
It's not like a stage in tour where you are looking to gain time for a GC. It's a one-day race and the finish line is all that counts, so why burn any more energy than you have to until that final climb? It doesn't make tactical sense unless you get some significant help. When Etixx, Astana and Orica had men down the road there was a possiblity of something happening but they couldn't work well together. BMC seemed mostly alone in the chase and that could have spiced things up.
Though i bet if we had a rider attack 30km out and go to the line we'd have cries of "boring" just the same. What we want to see as fans, with many riders attacking each other for 30km's, just is not going to happen. It's a fantasy... Unless you watch the Womens sport, i can't wait to watch their FW which should be a great race before the Men race for 2minutes.
The way I see it there are a few options to consider to make the race more exciting:
First off you can reduce the amount of teams and/or riders. There'll be a smaller peloton, there'll be less domestiques so the control of certains teams will be lessened. That means teams will be forced to be more tactical and send a strong guy in the break. It could also means that breaks are more difficult to reel back in, so the team leaders will have to come in action sooner.
Another option is to shorten the length of the race. A shorter race means that the race will be more compact, as the peloton can't afford to give a breakaway too much space. This will result in a higher pace, which will burn out riders quicker, meaning that there'll be less domestiques in the final to let it come to a sprint up the Cauberg, Mur de Huy or the Liège finish in this case. It could also mean riders/teams will be more offensive, because riders will have less kilometres in their legs, though I'm not entirely sure about that, yet.
Another option is to ban race radios. Lack of race radios mean the team leaders will have to calculate how hard they have to ride to reel in breakaways. What we usually see in races without radios is that the pack has a higher pace, because the favourites want to make sure the break doesn't stay away. Again this could lead to more guys getting dropped earlier, including domestiques who have to work harder. It could also mean more offensive riding, as the riders don't have their directeur sportif telling them what to do. The riders will be riding more intuitive (which is actually the way it was long ago, before all the professionalism).
Finally, I think it's an option to make the race harder. Though it doesn't mean attractive riding it will shed more riders, which means less domestiques and less control. But riders'll be saving themselves more if the race is harder. I still think the old AGR route was better, with the Keutenberg, Eyserenbosweg in the final. There was usually a small group of around 15-20 riders left at the final Cauberg.
Edited by Wilier on 19-04-2015 21:49
ruben wrote:
the only way to fix the hilly classics is smaller teams
at this point the domestiques of some teams are so strong they can neutralize any attack.. and make the pace so hard that attacking is not even a possibility. There is no power left for it. So it looks like a boring race with a sprint.
While if you are in the peloton you are probably dead with 40km to go. And the sprint is just a sprint of dead people.
We really need smaller teams in big classics. The control is killing hilly classics long ago. And this year we even saw that PR and RVV are becoming more controlled now too...
Smaller teams, in my opinion will cause other problems. F.e. every team would just send their best domestique in the break. The break will never get caught, since no-one could bring them back, since the only guys who are better, are the team leaders.
No. With smaller line-ups the leaders will want to make sure that their top domestiques will be fit and ride for them when they need them in the deciding moments. They may send a little guy upfront to keep their other 4 guys from chasing at first but the breakaway won't have a chance in most big classics anyway. No way they burn their best helpers, and it's unlikely that they sacrifice their own chances at victory for the distant chance of a domestique winning the race.
I actually think that a race like AGR needs to become longer and tougher, not shorter. With an hour more of proper racing, the peloton will be thinned out more.
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
First step should be to change the route back to the old one. That off course doesnt solve the problem in general (that the classics have become more controlled and thus boring, at least that goes for the ardennes), but will make AGR more than just Fleche Wallone in disguise.
I dno about the no radios and reducing the teams to 6, but if this trend continues, I would be all in for it. So far this season I dont think the racing have been boring tho.
TheManxMissile wrote:
What we want to see as fans, with many riders attacking each other for 30km's, just is not going to happen. It's a fantasy...
Well I can think of a time when it wasnt fantasy. Dirty riders made for a better sport, the truth sucks.
I also want to second the removal of power meters. They are the single worst addition to the sport in the last few years.
Edited by Movistar on 19-04-2015 22:15
miguejack wrote:
A pretty boring one to be fair. Just happy for Costa's 4th place
I think the solution to these Ardennes classics is to shake up the routes, as put in some of the steeper or longer climbs nearer the end instead of earlier, for example in LBL La Redoute comes way too far from the finish to have any real impact on the race. This would turn them more into pure endurance races, that would allow the better riders to risk getting into a race winning breakaway like we nearly had with Nibali today.
Strangely enough I don't mind how the Amstel Gold races with everybody arriving together at the final climb, I just hate that when it happens on the FW or LBL.
I thought today was exciting when Nibali and Clarke were out in front, a pity they didn't work together as both looked strong enough to at least hang in there to the end, Nibali lost Rosa which was a blow and Martin was a bad rider to have in the move.
Finally the main lesson of the day, shows just how well Etixx can go when they keep the race tactics simple and just have one race leader, instead of the 3/4 they often have in the cobbled classics.
TheManxMissile wrote:
What we want to see as fans, with many riders attacking each other for 30km's, just is not going to happen. It's a fantasy...
Well I can think of a time when it wasnt fantasy. Dirty riders made for a better sport, the truth sucks.
I also want to second the removal of power meters. They are the single worst addition to the sport in the last few years.
Dirty riders made for a better sport? What a load of rubbish! It made it a circus and it wasn't enetertaining it was a joke. There was nothing wrong with Amstel, it's not meant to be a super selective race, the parcours dictate that, also we don't have one super dominant hilly classics rider/team at the moment which contributes to closer racing. When there is a dominant rider on the scence then the racing will change, but doping doesn't make the racing better for anybody. One thing I would like to see change is race radios, it has taken some of the unpredictability out of racing and the safety argument for keeping them is rubbish.
Edited by Strydz on 20-04-2015 01:31
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Shonak wrote:
[quote]Paul23 wrote:
[quote]ruben wrote:
I actually think that a race like AGR needs to become longer and tougher, not shorter. With an hour more of proper racing, the peloton will be thinned out more.
I am not sure that another 50kms or whatever will make an impact on that mate. Because it would probably mean another 50kms of chicken racing with slow tempo. I quite like an idea with smaller teams or banning the race radios (i am for ban of radios for a very long time).
Anyway i missed the race and watched the recorded replay of last 50kms and it was usual AGR. Impressive feat from Matthews to chase Gilbert, but he paid for that later and Kwiatek capitalised, great win fro the rainbow jersey. Also Alaphilippe, wow.
I found that race really exciting, lots of attacks and I think the Aussie commentators sum up the race (they were talking about the sprint though) "We were really just shouting names out." Lots of attacks, and the race was exciting from 38km out from the finish and I have to say, Kwiateks sprint was perfect there. Also, credit to Mathews following Gilbert on the climb.
![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
