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Sky Doping/Hate Thread
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| ruben |
Posted on 06-07-2013 22:03
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Grand Tour Champion
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Also, Kennaugh the next Brit to take over after Froome? And then Joshua Edmunsson?
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 06-07-2013 22:09
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World Champion
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Ian Butler wrote:
ruben wrote:
Don't think Porte is that suspect tbh. Slower than Gesink in 2010. Can't be that good.
(which makes me sad, where would Gesink be without all the bad luck after 2010... )
I don't know. Porte is pretty suspicious to me. Was a decent guy, suddenly this year he's Froome 2012. Next year he'll win the Tour, and Sky will keep this up for ever 
Yup 2012 Wiggo - 2013 Froome - 2014 Porte - 2015 Kennaugh
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 06-07-2013 22:29
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Tour de France Champion
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Ollfardh wrote:
Ian Butler wrote:
ruben wrote:
Don't think Porte is that suspect tbh. Slower than Gesink in 2010. Can't be that good.
(which makes me sad, where would Gesink be without all the bad luck after 2010... )
I don't know. Porte is pretty suspicious to me. Was a decent guy, suddenly this year he's Froome 2012. Next year he'll win the Tour, and Sky will keep this up for ever
Yup 2012 Wiggo - 2013 Froome - 2014 Porte, but, 2015 Kelderman
FYP
Edited by Jesleyh on 06-07-2013 22:31
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| SSJ2Luigi |
Posted on 06-07-2013 22:33
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Jesleyh wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
Ian Butler wrote:
ruben wrote:
Don't think Porte is that suspect tbh. Slower than Gesink in 2010. Can't be that good.
(which makes me sad, where would Gesink be without all the bad luck after 2010... )
I don't know. Porte is pretty suspicious to me. Was a decent guy, suddenly this year he's Froome 2012. Next year he'll win the Tour, and Sky will keep this up for ever
Yup 2012 Wiggo - 2013 Froome - 2014 Porte, but, 2015 Kelderman
FYP
dear god no, Kelderman at Sky 
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| lagetcher |
Posted on 06-07-2013 23:21
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Sprinter
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Magical parasites are the answer to everything. |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 06-07-2013 23:38
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issoisso wrote:
niconico wrote:
issoisso wrote:
niconico wrote:
I know zip about this whole story. I've been told that Sky has a completely different approach to training, scientific people say. Being a cyclist myself I know about differing training cultures and in being a Sports Science student I also know stuff about sports physiology, psychology etc.
Sports physiology is a very interesting field, but it's hard to define optimum training methods that you can apply on a specific rider designed for a specific race, because our "engines" just work differently.
Who says Sky can't have discovered some kind of new revolutionizing training scheme for their riders? I'm not taking any sides, just interested in this aspect.
If someone has some online litterature regarding Team Sky's training philosophy I would be very interested in looking at it.
Out. 
There isn't any literature because when they started bragging about what they did differently it turned out to be stuff everyone had been doing for many years, such as training at altitude. So they stopped.
You might want to read about their until recently team doctor who was outed due to massive public pressure
https://www.telegr...lture.html
He's since been replaced with an italian doctor who was arrested in the 2001 San Remo raids where hundreds of drugs were apprehended.
With both doctors Sky has tried to hide the association by not listing either on their website as part of the medical team
Righto, but I do think I've heard things about using reversed periodization and not traditional linear periodization, which is the fancy word for the Eastern European school, with low intensity training in the off-season and not doing intervals until later when the season kicks off, with reversed periodization being high intensity, low volume during off-season.
Again I have no litterature for backing this up, only something I was told by a training buddie. You wouldn't know anything about that perhaps?
Low intensity baselines in the off-season is the now discredited 1970s school of cycling that was proven innefective about 10 years ago by coaches such as Fred Grappé.
Aquarius can probably tell you more about Grappé's methods when he posts here later today
EDIT: Did you change nickname? 4000 posts and I've never seen you around here before?
It's Grappe, not Grappé (as in bunch of grapes, not bunched grapes).
Before I answer on the training part, there are various methods to evaluate power indirectly, but apparently Froome did 6,5 or something, which'd be 455 W (for 70 kg). Remember it's only a ~20 minutes climb, and that riders lose like 1 W/minute, so Froome might do 415 on a 60 minutes climb, or 435 on a 40 minutes one.
435 is interesting, because last year TDF and Vuelta, and this year's Giro were around 420 W for such climbs. 4 % difference over riders whom I don't trust ? Rrrrrright !
Just for the record, EPO/non-EPO difference is or was 4 to 13 %.
Now, on the training part, the part about doing 2 months of endurance only, one of high endurance and starting intervals only one month or so before the season is a totally outdated model (which I followed 15 years ago  ).
For 15 years at least, there are two models for the Winter season (between the last races and the first ones of the next season). Either riders keep cycling at least every other day, either they don't cycle at all during 2 or 3 weeks.
In the first case they keep working all the qualities they use during the season and toy with fatigue levels.
In the second case, they start with 4 weeks of basic endurance, 4 weeks of high endurance + strength, then 4 weeks intervals and they're already Down Under for some of them, with a level of performance close to 90~95 % of what they'll reach during the season.
Grappe thinks, and I tend to believe him, that it's more efficient because it provides a better assimilation of the qualities developed.
From what I've understood, Sky (at least Wiggins) are working with a coach coming from swimming. He's maintaining them at a very high level all year, instead of having a model that'd consist in peaking every 8 to 10 weeks.
I read a very interesting article from early 2008 about Rebellin training. It was a bit different, but still not revolutionary (he worked strength a lot and all along, instead of doing it in the high endurance cycle).
During the season, either riders try to strengthen their weakpoints and improve their forte, either (but it's not necessarily different), they reproduce race efforts to become more efficient in the kind of efforts that decide the race (threshold work for most). |
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 06-07-2013 23:46
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Tour de France Champion
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You preface a comment with "Just for Fun" you assume no-one will take it seriously 
I want to know what Sky are on! It can't be EPO and i doubt its either AICAR or GW156 etc as other people on it can't even keep up. Whatever Sky have i want some as it must be fucking insane, and i want to run the 100m in 4 seconds
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 06-07-2013 23:49
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Tour de France Champion
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TheManxMissile wrote:
You preface a comment with "Just for Fun" you assume no-one will take it seriously
I want to know what Sky are on! It can't be EPO and i doubt its either AICAR or GW156 etc as other people on it can't even keep up. Whatever Sky have i want some as it must be fucking insane, and i want to run the 100m in 4 seconds
It could be a combination of several drugs, and probably is.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| rjc_43 |
Posted on 07-07-2013 00:21
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Team Leader
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Aquarius wrote:
issoisso wrote:
niconico wrote:
issoisso wrote:
[quote]niconico wrote:
bits and bobs
other bits and bobs
A little more bits and bobs
Now, on the training part, the part about doing 2 months of endurance only, one of high endurance and starting intervals only one month or so before the season is a totally outdated model (which I followed 15 years ago ).
For 15 years at least, there are two models for the Winter season (between the last races and the first ones of the next season). Either riders keep cycling at least every other day, either they don't cycle at all during 2 or 3 weeks.
In the first case they keep working all the qualities they use during the season and toy with fatigue levels.
In the second case, they start with 4 weeks of basic endurance, 4 weeks of high endurance + strength, then 4 weeks intervals and they're already Down Under for some of them, with a level of performance close to 90~95 % of what they'll reach during the season.
Grappe thinks, and I tend to believe him, that it's more efficient because it provides a better assimilation of the qualities developed.
From what I've understood, Sky (at least Wiggins) are working with a coach coming from swimming. He's maintaining them at a very high level all year, instead of having a model that'd consist in peaking every 8 to 10 weeks.
I read a very interesting article from early 2008 about Rebellin training. It was a bit different, but still not revolutionary (he worked strength a lot and all along, instead of doing it in the high endurance cycle).
During the season, either riders try to strengthen their weakpoints and improve their forte, either (but it's not necessarily different), they reproduce race efforts to become more efficient in the kind of efforts that decide the race (threshold work for most).
Interestingly, should you ever read Chris Boardman's biography, he maintains that he used to train basically 8 hours a week, without any endurance, long steady rides, etc. Just hard-as-hell intensity. He was doing that a fair few years before Sky et al. started.
I guess it's all down to what riders can mentally put up with as well as environmental conditions. Turbo for an hour at threshold, or 3 hours in 5 deg. C. where you can't push too hard for fear of getting ill, etc. in the midst of winter.
Intervals in winter for me? Hard for me to do. |
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| samdiatmh |
Posted on 07-07-2013 03:14
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the thing i don't quite understand is that this mountain strategy isn't exactly new, and yet it's working wonders (against basically all riders)
2012 Giro was basically Basso sitting Liquigas on the front, and then Szymd attempting to destroy the field
as the results book says, Liquigas didn't even get a stage win that tour |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 21:19
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| ozzie68 |
Posted on 07-07-2013 04:55
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Put simply. It stinks !!!!!
Why??? All riders are destined to have a "bad day or two during a Tour".
Doesnt matter if you're Greg LeMond, Evan Basso, Pedro Delgado , Miguel Indurain, Cadel Evans, Laurent Fignon. The shere strain of hauling your body over mountains , 2 out of the 3 weeks of a Grand Tour will leave a physical legacy. For the past 2 years SKY riders show no signs of this basic human condition. Lance Armstrong showed no signs of this basic human condition either.
A former consultant doctor to the UCI officially told the world's press earlier this year and to that extent Professional riders alike, that a full proof test for "blood transfusions" has not yet been devised.
Sprinting for 5 kms uphill at the end of a 5 or 6 hour stage is absolute bullshit in my opinion!!! Who were the last 4 riders to exhibit this inhuman behaviour??? Armstrong, Landis , Contador, Rasmussen and now we all know their personal background. |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 07-07-2013 09:22
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I forgot to add, but it's been said several times, that only the core riders of the GT team(s) have improved in biblical proportions at Sky. Other riders (classics or not part of mountain trains) may have improved too, but nowhere near as much. That improvement is as much as I'm ready to believe in terms of hard training + marginal gains.
When I read that interview with one of the former Châtenay-Malabry lab directors, I think I understood what's going at Sky.
I've written about it already, but basically he says that if he was running a team and only used products (as in PEDS) whose chemistry he'd fully master, that's to say how long it works, what the detection window is, etc., then he could offer a 100 % certainty of 0 positive to any team that'd hire him.
I fully respect his competence, but if he can do it others can too, so any team with a sufficient budget can certainly find a guy like him.
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| BritPCMFan |
Posted on 07-07-2013 11:47
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Stagiare
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I think Sky are ahead everywhere.
I think they have the best scientists on their team and its working two fold. They are getting every single second and every single watt they can get fairly. The Sky train tactic, legal training methods, warming up and warming down. I think in all these places they are ahead of the other teams.
Then they are micro dosing a wide mix and I would not be suprised if its being tailored too. Froome probably is not on the same mix that Porte is on. I've heard lots of time the problem with the theory "If everyone dopes its level playing field" is that evreyone has different reactions to different drugs and not everyone will get the same performance boost from the same doses.
I really hope Porte is clean though. Even as a brit, I find Froome riding away horrible because his so freaking ugly to watch. At least watching Porte drop Quintana and ride away with a HUGE smile on his face is quite amusing. |
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| vismitananda |
Posted on 07-07-2013 12:03
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Domestique
Posts: 452
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If they really took performance enhancing drugs? They must be taking loads of anti masking agents to cover this bloody dope.
-Pain is temporary, Quitting lasts forever-
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| fcancellara |
Posted on 07-07-2013 12:05
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Posts: 5194
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Ollfardh wrote:
Ian Butler wrote:
ruben wrote:
Don't think Porte is that suspect tbh. Slower than Gesink in 2010. Can't be that good.
(which makes me sad, where would Gesink be without all the bad luck after 2010... )
I don't know. Porte is pretty suspicious to me. Was a decent guy, suddenly this year he's Froome 2012. Next year he'll win the Tour, and Sky will keep this up for ever
Yup 2012 Wiggo - 2013 Froome - 2014 Porte - 2015 Kennaugh
2016 Dombrowski - 2017 Boswell - 2018 Rowe (the guy can do anything)
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| fcancellara |
Posted on 07-07-2013 12:08
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Waghlon wrote:
kumazan wrote:
Rumsas was such a good husband, no secrets with his wife.
You managed to find something positive about Raimondas Rumsas. I applaud you sir.
Something 'positive'
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| vismitananda |
Posted on 07-07-2013 12:15
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Domestique
Posts: 452
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Seriously Rowe? I think he's a Sprinter.
-Pain is temporary, Quitting lasts forever-
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| fcancellara |
Posted on 07-07-2013 12:24
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He's just like Boasson Hagen, a sprinter who can climb too.
And remember Wiggins? Pure time trial specialist -> climber.
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| vismitananda |
Posted on 07-07-2013 13:19
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Domestique
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I see, but it is natural that a TT expert can climb as well, but not all.
Edited by vismitananda on 07-07-2013 13:21
-Pain is temporary, Quitting lasts forever-
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| alexkr00 |
Posted on 07-07-2013 13:20
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Froome. nothing -> Tour de France winner
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
