Nah.
Tony Martin will already get a huge boost from his backup stats in climbs anyway, don't forget. He has 15 flat higher than the average climber on his level and about 8 RES more, and also some more STA.
He'll get a huge boost even in mountainous and hilly stages with that, recovering on the flat and just having ''endless'' energy bars
He will definitely feel like the average 75MO/76HI guy in climbs in game already I suppose, considering those stats
Oh and ''potential to be a stage-racer'' is meh. They said Sagan had potential to be a stage-racer as well, should we make him 77MO now in case he will focus on that? Nah rather wait until Martin pulls off some serious mountain results.
@Ollfardh
Not even too far off
His ''mountain stage'' TdF win wasn't really a mountain stage anyway, looking at the profile and result. Beside, it depends on the situation, but winning from the break doesn't always mean an upgrade anyway.
Tony really has the potential to be a stage racer. He started as a Climber and he also said that he wants to pull of one or 2 more WC ITTs and then start lose weight to maybe win the TdF...
Paul23 wrote:
Tony really has the potential to be a stage racer. He started as a Climber and he also said that he wants to pull of one or 2 more WC ITTs and then start lose weight to maybe win the TdF...
He's already 30 years old. After 2 more WC ITTs he'll probably be like 32. I don't think that he has enough time at 32 years old to change his specialization.
Paul23 wrote:
Tony really has the potential to be a stage racer. He started as a Climber and he also said that he wants to pull of one or 2 more WC ITTs and then start lose weight to maybe win the TdF...
He's already 30 years old. After 2 more WC ITTs he'll probably be like 32. I don't think that he has enough time at 32 years old to change his specialization.
The TdF stage win was not a alpine stage for sure but definitely a mountain stage.
I see you completely ignored his result in the Tour de Suisse. To become 4th in this tour with 0 helpers, losing the yellow jersey only on the last stage, with various mountain stages before, is somehow unrealistic with 73 MO stats
further clarification on Tony Martin:
That he has the potential to be a stage racer is, unlike Peter Sagan, undoubtedly. In his earlier career in Team High Road he was more often the captain in major stage races. The results speak for itself. When he moved to Quickstep this roll changed, as Quickstep never had big interest in GC riders and for some reason he was happy to be helper for others and only focusing on TTs.
So I mean you have to give Tony Martin potential stars (maybe 2-3) to be able to develop as a stage racer when he decides to do so. I am aware that he'll probably never become as good as the top guys but up to 77 in both MO and HI is absolutely realistic.
Edited by nobeer on 12-06-2015 18:46
The TdF stage win was not a alpine stage for sure but definitely a mountain stage.
I see you completely ignored his result in the Tour de Suisse. To become 4th in this tour with 0 helpers, losing the yellow jersey only on the last stage, with various mountain stages before, is somehow unrealistic with 73 MO stats
further clarification on Tony Martin:
That he has the potential to be a stage racer is, unlike Peter Sagan, undoubtedly. In his earlier career in Team High Road he was more often the captain in major stage races. The results speak for itself. When he moved to Quickstep this roll changed, as Quickstep never had big interest in GC riders and for some reason he was happy to be helper for others and only focusing on TTs.
So I mean you have to give Tony Martin potential stars (maybe 2-3) to be able to develop as a stage racer when he decides to do so. I am aware that he'll probably never become as good as the top guys but up to 77 in both MO and HI is absolutely realistic.
The TdF stage win was not a alpine stage for sure but definitely a mountain stage.
I see you completely ignored his result in the Tour de Suisse. To become 4th in this tour with 0 helpers, losing the yellow jersey only on the last stage, with various mountain stages before, is somehow unrealistic with 73 MO stats
further clarification on Tony Martin:
That he has the potential to be a stage racer is, unlike Peter Sagan, undoubtedly. In his earlier career in Team High Road he was more often the captain in major stage races. The results speak for itself. When he moved to Quickstep this roll changed, as Quickstep never had big interest in GC riders and for some reason he was happy to be helper for others and only focusing on TTs.
So I mean you have to give Tony Martin potential stars (maybe 2-3) to be able to develop as a stage racer when he decides to do so. I am aware that he'll probably never become as good as the top guys but up to 77 in both MO and HI is absolutely realistic.
77 MO ?
He meant 77 MO when Tony should decide to get a stage racer(f.e. if he should leave EQS)
You are kinda right, nobeer, but sadly, he didn't decide to be a GC guy atm, so I can understand Jes, who doesn't want him to give 75 MO. 74 would be enough. HI stats are a bit different. I think 75 should fit him well. And when he isn't forced to stay with Cav in the TdF, he can help Kwiatek very well, as last year.
@Nobeer
I did not completely ignore the Suisse result.
It is exactly what he should be capable of. 77MO is easily too high.
He won both TTs, and if it wasn't for them, he'd be 12th or something.
7th on one of the mountain stages is not bad for him, he was obviously in great form, however the other mountain stage is where he cracked.
Various mountain stages before? I count 1. And he had a nice gap on the other climbers beforehand. Sure he can manage himself on the climbs, and that's why he got 73MO and not 64
As said, with those awesome backup stats, he will feel stronger than most climbers on his current level, will feel like a 75/76MO guy I guess, although that's hard to estimate. I don't want him to be a TdF GC contender, which is what would happen with 76+ MO in a TT heavy field, really...
I cannot control his potential stars. I could assign him a random 79MO limit but that erases all randomness for something that wouldn't be guarenteed at all, and with his potential combined with Cyanide development, he could just become a GC contender, but he could also not grow, there's a random factor in that.
I mean, even Paul23, which is even according to himself, the biggest Tony fanboy ever, disagrees with you. What does that tell you? Edited by Jesleyh on 12-06-2015 19:36
Jesleyh wrote:
@Nobeer
I did not completely ignore the Suisse result.
It is exactly what he should be capable of. 77MO is easily too high.
He won both TTs, and if it wasn't for them, he'd be 12th or something.
7th on one of the mountain stages is not bad for him, he was obviously in great form, however the other mountain stage is where he cracked.
Various mountain stages before? I count 1. And he had a nice gap on the other climbers beforehand. Sure he can manage himself on the climbs, and that's why he got 73MO and not 64
As said, with those awesome backup stats, he will feel stronger than most climbers on his current level, will feel like a 75/76MO guy I guess, although that's hard to estimate. I don't want him to be a TdF GC contender, which is what would happen with 76+ MO in a TT heavy field, really...
I cannot control his potential stars. I could assign him a random 79MO limit but that erases all randomness for something that wouldn't be guarenteed at all, and with his potential combined with Cyanide development, he could just become a GC contender, but he could also not grow, there's a random factor in that.
I mean, even Paul23, which is even according to himself, the biggest Tony fanboy ever, disagrees with you. What does that tell you?
tbh, I'm kinda between you...i think 73 is too low and 75 too high. 74 would fit. I play with Tony all the time and he feels like a GT guy already...I managed to get him on 7th in the TdF. but still 74 would feel more realistic in 1 week stage races. TdF is fucked up anyway, because of the cobbles.
Again and Again, I never said his value is 77MO now. He can develop up to 77MO. The PCM.daily expansion packs limits his development to 74MO, which is just wrong. At the moment, 74MO,75HI is fine,yes. I agree with Jesleyh that his backup stats boost him a bit.
You can not praise enough his TdS performance last year. I mean, on the last stage he wasn't able to counter the attacks of the GC guys on the second last mountain, which resulted in a 2 min gap. So the other 40 km until finish, with the HC mountain, he was able to hold this gap with him as the only one leading (!), 20 guys hanging behind his wheel.
This was one of the best performances I've ever seen in Pro Cycling.
Edited by nobeer on 12-06-2015 20:05
Pcmdaily doesn't limit his development to 74MO
We can't 100% control the development, try another career and he might have a 78MO limit
And yes, I know about his Suisse performance, it was good, sure
But not 75+ MO worthy considering his backup stat boost him
The opposition was quite weak too, the GC leaders were at the Dauphine.
nobeer wrote:
The TdF stage win was not a alpine stage for sure but definitely a mountain stage.
That stage was hilly, with 'roulable' hills.
Paul23 wrote:
silent_control wrote:
Paul23 wrote:
Tony really has the potential to be a stage racer. He started as a Climber and he also said that he wants to pull of one or 2 more WC ITTs and then start lose weight to maybe win the TdF...
He's already 30 years old. After 2 more WC ITTs he'll probably be like 32. I don't think that he has enough time at 32 years old to change his specialization.
*cough* Wiggins *cough*
Still, Wiggins is a different story. He was already climbing ~ at his best in 2008/2009. He improved his TT later on. I really doubt that Tony Martin can change that dramatically.
Edited by silent_control on 13-06-2015 09:07
Croatia14 wrote:
Went through the latest database and I think some stats on minor riders should maybe change. Roger Kluge is on 66 regeneration, he should be updated after his performance on stage 21 at the giro... Ruben Fernandez is on 72 climbing, he is climbing very well this year and could be updated to 73/74 Primoz Roglic has an amazing year, climbing well on various hilly(68) & mountain(71) races. His hill and especially back-up stats don´t match his strength in comparison to his opponents. Gregor Mühlberger can climb, as seen at the Course de la Paix lately. 61 MO is way too low for him. Robert Power seems to be slightly too strong in comparison to international (f.e. Eiking, Mohoric, Pedersen) as well as national (Haig) talents Klemen Stimulak is not that bad (58 MO) when it comes to climbing, seen at his helping effort at the Tour of Slovenia last year. He should be more like 64 or something like that. some current international free agents (f.e. Diniz, Wang, the Iranian, Diaz, Moyano) should be boosted in comparison to european (f.e. Facchini, Bekaert)...
You got some good opinions and I would like to add the Kiwi Jesse Sergent as a much better climber than his low 60s.
He fought with Muhlberger and WON a mountain stage in Tour of Austria last year, surly not with the best of riders. But still pretty good. Peter Kennaugh won overall and Zoidl, Dan Martin, Javi Moreno and still some pretty good climbers.
Jesse might not be good in climb after climb, so lower REC perhaps
He can win the occasional mountain stage, but not with that very low rating.
Edited by clamel on 13-06-2015 10:11
clamel wrote:
You got some good opinions and I would like to add the Kiwi Jesse Sergent as a much better climber than his low 60s.
He fought with Muhlberger and WON a mountain stage in Tour of Austria last year, surly not with the best of riders. But still pretty good. Peter Kennaugh won overall and Zoidl, Dan Martin, Javi Moreno and still some pretty good climbers.
Jesse might not be good in climb after climb, so lower REC perhaps
He can win the occasional mountain stage, but not with that very low rating.
Agreed here but rec isn't climb after climb in a stage iirc and his rec was boosted after his second place on the last stage of La Vuelta last year afaik. But yeah, good points and despite nobody caring for some performances over the last few years I demand he get a higher fighter stat Seriously though really back up this point not just due to him being friggin Jesse Sergent but even as neutral
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant." [ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT] Xero Racing
Jesleyh wrote:
Just want to mention that highest MO stats will be 83.
But that does mean that most of those will just move up +1.
Which ones were the 80,5s for you?
If the highest stat is 83, I would for sure give Landa 81 now. I know that he probably havent shown enough to deserve it, but I just dont think it can possibly be a fluke after being the best in the mountains against Contador, Aru etc. I would probably also raise Porte to 81 due to his early season domination, but im aware it would make him a legit GT-contender now which he isnt - maybe just give him and low REC do compensate for that. With 83 the highest, I would put them like this:
83: Contador, Froome, Quintana
82: Nibali
81: Porte, Landa (both with relatively low backup stats so it doesnt make them worldbeates)
80: Rodriguez, Pinot, Aru, Valverde, Bardet
79: Uran, Peraud, Tejay (I honestly thinks he deserves 80 - so far, he has been very good in MTF's), Majka, Pozzovivo
78: Mollema, Talansky, Martin, Costa, Fuglsang, Kelderman, Kreuziger, Hesjedal
77: Kruijswijk, Henao, Navarro, Yates etc.
Edited by Riis123 on 13-06-2015 10:59
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