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Vuelta a España 2011
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 05-09-2011 17:01
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dienblad wrote:
So for me, he's clean untill proven guilty.
But then again: no positive tests, no doper.
Sorry, but that's two different things. Taking dope makes you a doped rider, not a clean one.
It's not related to being caught or not.
Being caught makes you a doped rider from Justice viewpoint, and allows sanctions.
As we're not judging riders here (in the sense that we don't pretend being Justice and have no power to trial anyone), it's fine to write X or Y is doped if our critical minds think it is.
The fact that a rider has not been caught must by no way prevent us from using critical minds, be it to admit that what we see is possible, or impossible.
Edited by Aquarius on 05-09-2011 17:01
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 25-11-2024 17:24
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| facmanpob |
Posted on 05-09-2011 17:04
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Leaving the potential doping aside, the thing that frustrates me about this Vuelta is that the winner may well be decided by time bonuses, and I don't like time bonuses.....
Offhand, I think that Cobo has amassed 40 seconds of bonuses so far, and good luck to him for playing the system, but I've always felt that its a false way of deciding a race.... |
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| Crommy |
Posted on 05-09-2011 17:07
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Aquarius wrote:
dienblad wrote:
So for me, he's clean untill proven guilty.
But then again: no positive tests, no doper.
Sorry, but that's two different things. Taking dope makes you a doped rider, not a clean one.
It's not related to being caught or not.
Being caught makes you a doped rider from Justice viewpoint, and allows sanctions.
As we're not judging riders here (in the sense that we don't pretend being Justice and have no power to trial anyone), it's fine to write X or Y is doped if our critical minds think it is.
The fact that a rider has not been caught must by no way prevent us from using critical minds, be it to admit that what we see is possible, or impossible.
This
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| I_Mayo |
Posted on 05-09-2011 17:10
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facmanpob wrote:
Leaving the potential doping aside, the thing that frustrates me about this Vuelta is that the winner may well be decided by time bonuses, and I don't like time bonuses.....
Offhand, I think that Cobo has amassed 40 seconds of bonuses so far, and good luck to him for playing the system, but I've always felt that its a false way of deciding a race....
Actually the most aggressive riders usually gets those bonuses. So I have no problem with riders like Cobo and Purito being rewarded for their attacks. |
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| tyriion |
Posted on 05-09-2011 19:06
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I_Mayo wrote:
facmanpob wrote:
Leaving the potential doping aside, the thing that frustrates me about this Vuelta is that the winner may well be decided by time bonuses, and I don't like time bonuses.....
Offhand, I think that Cobo has amassed 40 seconds of bonuses so far, and good luck to him for playing the system, but I've always felt that its a false way of deciding a race....
Actually the most aggressive riders usually gets those bonuses. So I have no problem with riders like Cobo and Purito being rewarded for their attacks.
+everyone knows this going into the race, if it doesn't suit you don't whine about it.
Check out my ManGame team here
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| Oxslow |
Posted on 05-09-2011 19:28
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Sky have said for a while now that Froome was not living up to the data they get from the lab. So perhaps he is able to get the results that he shows in the lab on the road. Also he has had parasitical infection called bilharza (a parasite that feeds off the red blood cells) for over a year and now he is getting better training from being in Europe instead of Africa where he started his career. |
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| ruben |
Posted on 05-09-2011 20:35
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Aquarius wrote:
dienblad wrote:
So for me, he's clean untill proven guilty.
But then again: no positive tests, no doper.
Sorry, but that's two different things. Taking dope makes you a doped rider, not a clean one.
It's not related to being caught or not.
Being caught makes you a doped rider from Justice viewpoint, and allows sanctions.
As we're not judging riders here (in the sense that we don't pretend being Justice and have no power to trial anyone), it's fine to write X or Y is doped if our critical minds think it is.
The fact that a rider has not been caught must by no way prevent us from using critical minds, be it to admit that what we see is possible, or impossible.
So what do you think about Europcar in the Tour?
In the final stage they had maybe 5 riders with the best 40 before the final mountain.. (ofcourse the guys who worked had to drop, but still), and 2 riders with the best 5 climbers in the Tour |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 05-09-2011 20:37
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As a matter of principle I think Ruben is wrong
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| ruben |
Posted on 05-09-2011 20:57
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As a matter of principle I deem you and Aquarius hypocrits.
You can blame me for bias when trying to judge rider strength, and that very well is true..
But I think you guys are completely biased when it comes to judging wether a 'suprise' performance is doped or not.
Edited by ruben on 05-09-2011 20:58
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| issoisso |
Posted on 05-09-2011 21:30
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There's a threshold. Everyone's is different. Let's say Mollema is a 2, Froome a 4 and Cobo a 7. Cobo is over my threshold so I'm convinced he's on something. Froome gets a "I think he might be doping but I'm not sure" pass because he's under my threshold.
Each person's threshold is different so of course we're all going to disagree.
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| hillis91 |
Posted on 05-09-2011 21:35
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issoisso wrote:
There's a threshold. Everyone's is different. Let's say Mollema is a 2, Froome a 4 and Cobo a 7. Cobo is over my threshold so I'm convinced he's on something. Froome gets a "I think he might be doping but I'm not sure" pass because he's under my threshold.
Each person's threshold is different so of course we're all going to disagree.
You have to look at the playing field aswell. The Vuelta is late in the season and riders that have been injured or something of that nature will automaticly perform better because of less race day's and less fatigue. And the Vuelta is as i said late in the season, so it's waaaay easier to "suprise" there then in the Tour. Being a suprise in the tour is way much more suspicious than in the Vuelta.
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 05-09-2011 21:40
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ruben wrote:
As a matter of principle I deem you and Aquarius hypocrits.
You can blame me for bias when trying to judge rider strength, and that very well is true..
But I think you guys are completely biased when it comes to judging wether a 'suprise' performance is doped or not.
Hypocrit what ?
Contador was/is doped yet very talented, right ? Cobo climbed Angliru this year as fast as Contador in 2008, and if I remember the stage right, riders didn't really wait for each other that day. Then Cobo is related to a bunch of shabby guys, and has been for ages.
Europcar guys managed to hang on like you mentioned the very year when performances dramatically lowered (see Alpe d'Huez times for example, the worst for years).
Though, I'm not saying that team is made of saints, or has always been. I mean Rous' TDF 2000 (or was it 2001 ?) was way more suspicious than Voeckler this year. They also had Lelarge previously, and they signed Beloki in 2004 (I mean THE Beloki, come on, could they really trust him ?).
By the way, Froome is suprising as well, as issoisso wrote "he might be on stuff, but I don't know". Mollema might be on stuff as well, after all I don't know, but he's not performing anywhere above what could reasonnably be expected from him.
My common sense says there's nothing wrong with Mollema, Froome needs to be looked after, Wiggins needs an even closer look at his performances, whereas Cobo is expected to be caught at any time.
Voeckler would be somewhere between Mollema and Froome there, slightly closer to Mollema. |
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| hillis91 |
Posted on 05-09-2011 21:51
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If they are dopers, they need a new "drug-dealer" because nobody has been a HUGE suprise yet. Except Cobo.
Edited by hillis91 on 05-09-2011 21:59
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| cactus-jack |
Posted on 05-09-2011 21:55
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Aquarius wrote:
Hypocrit what ?
By the way, Froome is suprising as well, as issoisso wrote "he might be on stuff, but I don't know". Mollema might be on stuff as well, after all I don't know, but he's not performing anywhere above what could reasonnably be expected from him.
My common sense says there's nothing wrong with Mollema, Froome needs to be looked after, Wiggins needs an even closer look at his performances, whereas Cobo is expected to be caught at any time.
Voeckler would be somewhere between Mollema and Froome there, slightly closer to Mollema.
Do you mean that it's not unexpected to see Froome do better then Wiggins? |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 05-09-2011 22:11
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I don't really know Froome, so I could expect virtually anything from him.
I know more about Wiggins, and I don't trust him, to put it straight. His performances since 2009 have been questionable.
I mean he's suddenly started climbing the year he lost a lot (a real lot) of weight. Why not after all... 2009 was also the year when all TDF leaders looked thin as ever (Contador, the Schlecks, Armstrong, Wiggins), and the year when Aicar (some sort of human growth hormone which makes its users extremely thin) was supposed to be the new magic thing. Wiggins said he only changed his diet to start performing at that level. That was as credible as him claiming to be the Queen of England in disguise.
In my opinion Froome is a huge question mark. I'm not saying that was he does is impossible, just that he has never done it before. So, I'll wait to know more before having an actual opinion about him, just hoping time will tell something if something has to be said.
Also, I do lack datas like what was on cyclismag the previous years, to back up the feelings I have when watching. Figures, when interpreted properly, helped telling if the global performances were low or high. |
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| kumazan |
Posted on 05-09-2011 22:22
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hillis91 wrote:
If they are dopers, they need a new "drug-dealer" because nobody has been a HUGE suprise yet. Except Cobo.
Froome has been a HUGE surprise too. He kinda showed potential, specially on ITTs, but he never, ever suggested that he could be one of the top 3 climbers after 2 weeks of a GT. I'd argue that both Fuglsang and monfort have been huge (no caps this time) surprises, but both have previously shown they're talented.
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| felix_29 |
Posted on 05-09-2011 22:23
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@Aquarius: maybe you should also have mentioned that the loss of weight is just one effect of Aicar, the other one is an improved endurance.
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 05-09-2011 22:26
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kumazan wrote:
hillis91 wrote:
If they are dopers, they need a new "drug-dealer" because nobody has been a HUGE suprise yet. Except Cobo.
Froome has been a HUGE surprise too. He kinda showed potential, specially on ITTs, but he never, ever suggested that he could be one of the top 3 climbers after 2 weeks of a GT. I'd argue that both Fuglsang and monfort have been huge (no caps this time) surprises, but both have previously shown they're talented.
I believe Monfort and Fuglsang are clean. And after reading these posts overhere i can conclude the top 4 is doped so...
MONFORT FOR THE WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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| kumazan |
Posted on 05-09-2011 22:30
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Spilak23 wrote:
kumazan wrote:
hillis91 wrote:
If they are dopers, they need a new "drug-dealer" because nobody has been a HUGE suprise yet. Except Cobo.
Froome has been a HUGE surprise too. He kinda showed potential, specially on ITTs, but he never, ever suggested that he could be one of the top 3 climbers after 2 weeks of a GT. I'd argue that both Fuglsang and monfort have been huge (no caps this time) surprises, but both have previously shown they're talented.
I believe Monfort and Fuglsang are clean. And after reading these posts overhere i can conclude the top 4 is doped so...
MONFORT FOR THE WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wasn't trying to imply that those riders are/aren't clean/doped. Just said their performances have surprised us all. Well. most of us at least.
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| Spilak23 |
Posted on 05-09-2011 22:36
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kumazan wrote:
Spilak23 wrote:
kumazan wrote:
hillis91 wrote:
If they are dopers, they need a new "drug-dealer" because nobody has been a HUGE suprise yet. Except Cobo.
Froome has been a HUGE surprise too. He kinda showed potential, specially on ITTs, but he never, ever suggested that he could be one of the top 3 climbers after 2 weeks of a GT. I'd argue that both Fuglsang and monfort have been huge (no caps this time) surprises, but both have previously shown they're talented.
I believe Monfort and Fuglsang are clean. And after reading these posts overhere i can conclude the top 4 is doped so...
MONFORT FOR THE WIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I wasn't trying to imply that those riders are/aren't clean/doped. Just said their performances have surprised us all. Well. most of us at least.
Well, it was cynical. I don't believe anyone of them is doped but the discussion turned into accuses to everyone. Even a fan of Europcar joined the discussion definding his team while this is the Vuelta 2011 thread and Europcar is even not participating.
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