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PCMdaily DB Stat Discussion
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 27-04-2015 06:34
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World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
At the moment this is what I'm going with (even though a lot of these riders didn't ride the Ardennes) Also the hill stat is used often in the big tours so no major GC guy should have a hill stat below 77 imo. Also worth bearing in mind, the LBL I was once told on here also uses the mtn stat a bit which is why the big GC guys can contest it. Other guys like Ulissi are great hill climbers but have lower stamina etc. Also I know some of the riders below didn't do that well like Mollema but hill stat is also not just about the Ardennes races.
Alejandro Valverde 82
Joaquim Rodriguez 81
Philippe Gilbert 81 (only really at AG)
Dan Martin 81 (crashed at FW and LBL)
Michal Kwiatkowski 81
Daniel Moreno 80
Simon Gerrans 80 (coming back to fitness)
Julian Alaphilippe 80
Giampaolo Caruso 79
Alberto Contador 79
Vincenzo Nibali 79
Rui Costa 79
Diego Ulissi 79
Domenico Pozzovivo 78
Roman Kreuziger 78
Richie Porte 78
Sergio Henao 78
Roman Bardet 78
Bauke Mollema 78
Jakob Fuglsang 78
Jelle Vanendert 78
Nairo Quintana 78
Rigoberto Uran 78
Tom-Velte Slagter 78
Michael Albasini 78
Enrico Gasparotto 78/77
Have a whole load of other guys on 77
(no idea what to give him now)
Carlos Betancur ?
I would say that you have overrated Kwiatek, with 81. He is not one of he best puncheurs in the peloton, he is rather a Sagan type of puncher and i would say some 79 would be pretty enough if Valverde is on 82. Kwiatek is successful in hilly races especially thnaks to his good flat ability and stamina to hold on, combined with good acceleration and great sprint.
Caruso and Ulissi could be in my eyes moved a bit down, i dont think these should be ahead guys like Kreuziger or Henao, both are imo better puncheurs and could use a swap with the first duo.
How success in lesser races matter for Ulissi, when he is not facing super opposition there?
Just my thoughts. I agree with Alaphilippe on 79-80.
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 27-04-2015 06:36
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| Ton1Mart1n |
Posted on 27-04-2015 09:12
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Domestique
Posts: 400
Joined: 14-06-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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Kwiat and Julian Alaphilippe are overrated.
I would say:
Kwiat: 79
Alaphilippe: 78
Still they got a chance to win it but are not the favourites.
Otherwise looks great.
“When it’s hurting you, that’s when you can make a difference”
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| Forever the Best |
Posted on 27-04-2015 09:25
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3803
Joined: 27-06-2014
PCM$: 400.00
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Porte same as Henao in Hill? |
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| Ton1Mart1n |
Posted on 27-04-2015 09:29
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Domestique
Posts: 400
Joined: 14-06-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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The Schleck Fan wrote:
Porte same as Henao in Hill?
According to Porte's results this spring and his good condition i would say thats all right.
“When it’s hurting you, that’s when you can make a difference”
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 27-04-2015 09:56
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
Joined: 13-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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fidjim2013 wrote:
Julian alaphilippe is quite good on hills but I really questing myself about his sprint stat because he got beat 2 times by valverde during sprint in those classics
Alaphilippe is very fast. The problem is that the 85% in this forum think that Valverde is fine with 69 in Sprints. When I think that he deserves 72 or similar.
You say that 72 it's a lot because he can sprint in each race, but Contador 79 and he never run the classics, Quintana 78 and the same, they never fight in this races.
If you dont want give to Valverde 72, I think that 70/71 its the minimum for him
Edited by AiZaK on 27-04-2015 09:56
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 07:50
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| Episode1 |
Posted on 27-04-2015 10:00
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Free Agent
Posts: 117
Joined: 09-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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I think Alaphilippe would be more like 77, but with a higher acceleration. |
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| Forever the Best |
Posted on 27-04-2015 10:34
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3803
Joined: 27-06-2014
PCM$: 400.00
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Ton1Mart1n wrote:
The Schleck Fan wrote:
Porte same as Henao in Hill?
According to Porte's results this spring and his good condition i would say thats all right. But his results this spring were mostly on mountains and TTs.
On the other hand Henao has performed well in all 3 Ardennes classics and was a beast in Pais Vasco where he battled with Rodriguez on Stage 3,4 and 5 which two of them were hilly and Stage 4 was a mix of hilly and mountain. |
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| Ton1Mart1n |
Posted on 27-04-2015 10:41
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Domestique
Posts: 400
Joined: 14-06-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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FYI - these races are pretty hilly aswell:
2nd GC Santos Tour Down Under ('15)
GC Paris - Nice
GC Volta Ciclista a Catalunya ('15)
You cannot win them without having at least 77-78 in HI
“When it’s hurting you, that’s when you can make a difference”
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| Forever the Best |
Posted on 27-04-2015 10:57
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3803
Joined: 27-06-2014
PCM$: 400.00
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I think PCM should implement a 3rd stat which is mixed between Mo and Hl.P-N and Catalunya are not that hilly and 77 would be fine imo.And the field in TDU was very weak. |
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| clamel |
Posted on 27-04-2015 11:00
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1361
Joined: 13-07-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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I put in for minor riders in the shadows
Jan Dieteren,
last year had some good sprints, beating Ciolek,Thwaites, Porsev in Frankfurt (not Kristoff, but who can). Had some good sprints in last years Taiwan, equal to Giraud, then beating him recently in La Roue Tourangelle. Still a minor sprinter but for the future the german sprinter could be something.
At least that country have some great ones.
He is a bit lower ranked than most of the other sprinters he normally have beaten or being close to.
The effects on pumping him up a bit might be a realistic thing.
Lots more guys in this DB that have about 60-61 in acc and sprint, then being listed as sprinters on their teams websites.
These guys do need updating in my book, to get realism even on mid-to-lower levels.
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“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.” 
"If thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee."
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 27-04-2015 11:27
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15274
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Curious which guys you mean, clamel, I want to check their stats in my DB as well 
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| sgdanny |
Posted on 27-04-2015 12:45
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3591
Joined: 18-03-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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Okay might aswell put my opinion on the table and I still think that riders under 30 shouldn't decline by great lenghts, as fact is that some riders just get better without the rider actually losing his abillities. Though this is the pcm perspective, the one perspective of you guys is that such changes are possible if a rider doesn't perform.
So the best way of solving this is in my opinion to compare former results to new result and find the average stat that the rider needs to do the result in pcm and still be competitive to that of the real world.
An example would be Kwiatkowski being a 81 hill in the db, but his results this year was on 79, which means that I would put him at 80. This means that he isn't as strong compared to last year, but will still be strong enough to deserve 81 again, as Kwiatkowski is likely to deserve that through coming results.
| Rider | Before Ardennes | After Ardennes | Final / Average | | Alejandro Valverde | 82 | 82 | 82 | | Joaquim Rodriguez | 81 | 81 | 81 | | Phillipe Gilbert | 81 | 81 | 81 | | Daniel Martin | 81 | 81 | 81 | | Michal Kwiatkowski | 81 | 79 | 80 | | Simon Gerrans | 80 | 80 | 80 | | Daniel Moreno | 80 | 80 | 80 | | Daniel Moreno | 80 | 80 | 80 | | Rui Costa | 79 | 80 | 79,5 | | Sergio Henao | 79 | 80 | 79,5 | | Richie Porte | 78 | 80 | 79 | | Roman Kreuziger | 78 | 79 | 78,5 | | Domenico Pozzovivo | 78 | 78 | 78 | | Tom Slagter | 78 | 78 | 78 | | Jakob Fuglsang | 77 | 79 | 78 | | Simon Spilak | 77 | 79 | 78 | | Diego Ulissi | 79 | 76 | 77,5 | | Jelle Vanendert | 78 | 77 | 77,5 | | Julian Alaphilippe | 74 | 81 | 77,5 | | Romain Bardet | 77 | 78 | 77,5 | | Carlos Betancur | 78 | 76 | 77 | | Bauke Mollema | 78 | 76 | 77 | | Giampaolo Caruso | 77 | 77 | 77 | | Enrico Gasparotto | 77 | 77 | 77 | | Wilco Kelderman | 77 | 77 | 77 | | Ion Izagirre | 76 | 78 | 77 | | Louis Meintjes | 73 | 78 | 75,5 |
I have included results from Down Under, P-N and Pais Vasco into the comparison. Some will have xx,5 and generally could be either in the end. Before Ardennes is their stat before the races, After Ardennes is the stat given if they were to finish the same in the game and Final Average is the average of these two numbers.
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| Omloop |
Posted on 27-04-2015 13:06
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Domestique
Posts: 433
Joined: 08-01-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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My own personal preferences. On this list I've only included those riders who rode the ardenne classics this year.
Alejandro Valverde 82
Rodriguez 81
Martin 81
Gerrans 80
Gilbert 80
Moreno 80
Kwiatek 79(With very good sup stats)
Alaphillipe 79
Costa 79
Kreuziger 79
Albasini 79
Ulissi 79
Mollema 78
Henao 78/79
Fuglsang 78
Vanendert 78
Nibali 78/79
Bardet 78
Slagter 78
Caruso 78
Vuilermoz 78
Nordhaug 78(Im biased)
Van Avermaet 77
Nocentini 77
Matthews 77
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 27-04-2015 13:06
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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@Avin, Ton1Martin, Fidjim, Aizak
You've raised some good points and I guess there are really three ways for the top riders to win the Ardennes classics. 1) To wheel suck to the finish and then sprint Gerrans style. 2) Ride near the front and take the initiative like Valverde or Gilbert. 3) Attack from a long way out (these days like 1-2 km from the finish) and try and hold on.
Firstly Kwiatkowski is a rider that I have at 81 which could be too high but he did win AG and won the WC road race. I think 79 is too low and so 80 could be a good compromise.
Batancur should be no higher than 75 is really is quite poor now.
Ulissi can be the best in hilly stages of the GT's which is why 78/79 is right for him with a low stamina stat compared to the rest.
Big GT guys like Contador etc need a good hill stat for the GT's, their low stamina stat makes it harder for them to win in the Ardennes, so no need to change their hill stats.
Alaphilippe at the moment has a terrible stamina stat at just 69, so no matter how high his hill stat or sprint is he's not going to compete in the Ardennes classics that well, which is why I'm upping it.
For example I've played loads of LBL and the riders are almost dead near the top of the final climb and often they have no sprint in them, so stamina stat plays a big part in that race as it should.
These are the provisional stats I like at the moment (just for the top Ardennes guys here)
Hill:
Valverde 82 79 stamina 71 sprint 77 Acc
Rodriguez 81 78 stamina 65 sprint 82 Acc
Martin 81 78 stamina 68 sprint 79 Acc
Gilbert 81 79 stamina 71 sprint 83 Acc
Kwiatkowski 80 78 stamina 72 sprint 75 Acc
Moreno 80 77 stamina 67 sprint 78 Acc
Gerrans 80 79 stamina 74 sprint 79 Acc
Alaphilippe 80 77 stamina 73 sprint 75 Acc
Caruso 79 77 stamina 60 sprint 70 Acc
Nibali 79 77 stamina 63 sprint 73 Acc
Costa 79 77 stamina 68 sprint 74 Acc
Some of these sprint and Acc stats need to be discussed BUT also the fighter stat is another factor for these riders. Riders like Martin with high fighter will attack earlier whereas riders with low fighter will just stay with the group until the end like Gerrans. |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 27-04-2015 13:08
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Just seen Danny's great stats and Omloop as well after posting mine.
We all have similar stats and I think the key here is the backup stats like stamina, sprint and even fighter etc.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 27-04-2015 13:10
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 27-04-2015 13:29
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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sgdanny wrote:
Tafiolmo wrote:
Just seen Danny's great stats and Omloop as well after posting mine.
We all have similar stats and I think the key here is the backup stats like stamina, sprint and even fighter etc.
Yeah we're quite close, will try and make a bid on the big talking points later giving them full stats. Though I will have to say that Kwaitkowski on really need to get his stamina fixed, cause he was out of energy in the last parts of the Ardennes, but was still able to win AGR and making it ok so he might just need his stamina lowered
In fact that has always been the problem with Kwaitkowski, except that he didn't show weakness in the WC.
Have to go now as well for several hours, but will be back later to try and get them right as I want to update them on my DB later.
The other thing to bear in mind is that riders always can have bad days and the game reflects this in its daily form stat -5 to +5. So it's kind of important when upgrading or downgrading a rider on just one performance. I think his stamina should be around 78 anyway. In the db Alaphilippe only has a stamina of 69 which is crazy and needs to be upped to at least 77.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 27-04-2015 13:30
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 27-04-2015 13:32
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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AGR is still 258km! That's longer than FW by 53km and longer that LBL by 5km. So i wouldn't say Kwiatek's problem is stamina. Also 4th in the 200km DDV, 3rd in the 204km in the PN Stage 5, 2nd in the 215km Algarve Stage 4 all this year. And last year there was 1st at the Worlds and 3rd in LBL which were over 250km each. Plus as many good results at 200+Km as at 140km races, Kwiatkowski does not have a stamina issue!
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| clamel |
Posted on 27-04-2015 13:54
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1361
Joined: 13-07-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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Jesleyh wrote:
Curious which guys you mean, clamel, I want to check their stats in my DB as well
Well, it's mostly those minor Cont teams that in some cases have these a little wrong setup.
It's just minor so dont' spend to much time on it. They keep popping up now and then when I visiting a website with better description of the riders. The bigger WT and Pro-cont teams are well covered I believe.
I see if I can dig up some more than this german. Can't think of any at the moment, since as I said they are mostly in the shadow. They pop up now and then in minor races. The minor teams are getting better and better with their websites and the info on them.
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“We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.”
"If thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee."
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| aidanvn13 |
Posted on 27-04-2015 14:00
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 2797
Joined: 06-11-2010
PCM$: 200.00
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sgdanny wrote:
| Rider | Before Ardennes | After Ardennes | Final / Average | | Louis Meintjes | 73 | 78 | 75,5 |
Well, in my unbiased opinion I think Meintjes should be on 82 Mountain, 80 Hill, and 81 Stamina. I know I might be underrating him a bit, but we'll have to see how he does later in the season. 
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 27-04-2015 14:05
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15274
Joined: 21-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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clamel wrote:
Jesleyh wrote:
Curious which guys you mean, clamel, I want to check their stats in my DB as well
Well, it's mostly those minor Cont teams that in some cases have these a little wrong setup.
It's just minor so dont' spend to much time on it. They keep popping up now and then when I visiting a website with better description of the riders. The bigger WT and Pro-cont teams are well covered I believe.
I see if I can dig up some more than this german. Can't think of any at the moment, since as I said they are mostly in the shadow. They pop up now and then in minor races. The minor teams are getting better and better with their websites and the info on them.
Well, personally, I try to pay much attention to these minor teams, so I'd certainly be interested.
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
