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PCM.daily DB Stats discussion
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| Selwink |
Posted on 01-06-2014 16:38
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Grand Tour Champion
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76 should be about enough to reach top-10 in a GT. I think 76 is perfect, 75 seems to low, but 77 a tad too high. It would make him even to climbers like Hesjedal, which he isn't (yet).
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 01-06-2014 16:40
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World Champion
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Yup, look at the other climbers at 77 and you'll see he has no place there. Without his crash he might have had more progress, but I don't think we should take that into account.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Anderis |
Posted on 01-06-2014 16:43
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Domestique
Posts: 471
Joined: 13-09-2010
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Tafiolmo wrote:
The big problem with Dan Martin is that he's just a hill climber and not a proven big tour stage race rider. He once finished in the top 20 of La Vuelta and really deserves no more than 76 mtn and until proven differently his rec shouldn't be great. sadly he crashed out this Giro so we still don't know how he would've performed in this Giro when it mattered.
I disagree. I think Dan proved very well he deserves 77 MO. He was sitting 10th overall after 16 days of TdF last year and I reckon he would've finished 9th if not ilness that caught him then. He also would be around 6th overall in Vuelta 2011 if not a poor TT, 40 seconds penalty and one worse day during a hilly stage. And he won a pure MTF stage from a group of favourites then.
He also won Catalunya against strong opposition, which is the race with some stages classified as mountain in PCM. |
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| Riis123 |
Posted on 01-06-2014 16:58
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TimoCycling wrote:
He's atleast 77 MO in my opinion. Except for one day where he lost the GC at the Stelvio he has been with the best everyday. He's a pure climber.
No more than 77 for me.
Quintana 81
Aru 79
Uran 79
Pozzovivo 78
Rolland 78
Majka 78
Kelderman 77
Evans 77 - low rec
Hesjedal 77 - low rec as well
Poels 77 |
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 19:49
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 01-06-2014 16:59
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
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Riis123 wrote:
TimoCycling wrote:
He's atleast 77 MO in my opinion. Except for one day where he lost the GC at the Stelvio he has been with the best everyday. He's a pure climber.
No more than 77 for me.
Quintana 81
Aru 79
Uran 79
Pozzovivo 78
Rolland 78
Majka 78
Kelderman 77
Evans 77 - low rec
Hesjedal 77 - low rec as well
Poels 77
I don't think you can give Hesjedal low recovery. He is always really good in the final week. he had one bad day on Zoncolan and the TT was bad luck so I don't think that is fair to say.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| Riis123 |
Posted on 01-06-2014 17:08
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baseballlover312 wrote:
Riis123 wrote:
TimoCycling wrote:
He's atleast 77 MO in my opinion. Except for one day where he lost the GC at the Stelvio he has been with the best everyday. He's a pure climber.
No more than 77 for me.
Quintana 81
Aru 79
Uran 79
Pozzovivo 78
Rolland 78
Majka 78
Kelderman 77
Evans 77 - low rec
Hesjedal 77 - low rec as well
Poels 77
I don't think you can give Hesjedal low recovery. He is always really good in the final week. he had one bad day on Zoncolan and the TT was bad luck so I don't think that is fair to say.
He was almost atrocious the last couple of days and the TT wasn't entirely cause of 'bad luck' (which for some reason always is happening for Ryder and Garmin, lawl), but also bad legs. No questions bout that. |
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 01-06-2014 17:09
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
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Riis123 wrote:
baseballlover312 wrote:
Riis123 wrote:
TimoCycling wrote:
He's atleast 77 MO in my opinion. Except for one day where he lost the GC at the Stelvio he has been with the best everyday. He's a pure climber.
No more than 77 for me.
Quintana 81
Aru 79
Uran 79
Pozzovivo 78
Rolland 78
Majka 78
Kelderman 77
Evans 77 - low rec
Hesjedal 77 - low rec as well
Poels 77
I don't think you can give Hesjedal low recovery. He is always really good in the final week. he had one bad day on Zoncolan and the TT was bad luck so I don't think that is fair to say.
He was almost atrocious the last couple of days and the TT wasn't entirely cause of 'bad luck' (which for some reason always is happening for Ryder and Garmin, lawl), but also bad legs. No questions bout that.
He wasn't putting in a winning ride but it was much worse than it would have been and name another bad stage besides those 2 in the final week.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| Anderis |
Posted on 01-06-2014 17:17
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Domestique
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I think it would be too hasty to give Hesjedal low REC. Before this Giro, each time he wasn't nowhere in GC after 2 weeks (2010 Tour, 2011 Tour and 2012 Giro), 3rd week was much better for him than previous two.
Also I just realised Haas only has 65 in prologues. I believe something needs to be done about this:
https://www.procyc...to_Vecchio
https://www.procyc..._Southbank |
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| I_Mayo |
Posted on 01-06-2014 17:18
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Protected Rider
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baseballlover312 wrote:
Riis123 wrote:
baseballlover312 wrote:
Riis123 wrote:
TimoCycling wrote:
He's atleast 77 MO in my opinion. Except for one day where he lost the GC at the Stelvio he has been with the best everyday. He's a pure climber.
No more than 77 for me.
Quintana 81
Aru 79
Uran 79
Pozzovivo 78
Rolland 78
Majka 78
Kelderman 77
Evans 77 - low rec
Hesjedal 77 - low rec as well
Poels 77
I don't think you can give Hesjedal low recovery. He is always really good in the final week. he had one bad day on Zoncolan and the TT was bad luck so I don't think that is fair to say.
He was almost atrocious the last couple of days and the TT wasn't entirely cause of 'bad luck' (which for some reason always is happening for Ryder and Garmin, lawl), but also bad legs. No questions bout that.
He wasn't putting in a winning ride but it was much worse than it would have been and name another bad stage besides those 2 in the final week.
But come on, we all are talking about lowering Evans rec, but Hesjedal also run out of gas, I'm not saying his recovery should be as bad as Evans, but 74-76 range seems ok. |
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| Anderis |
Posted on 01-06-2014 17:25
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Domestique
Posts: 471
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Yeah, I think 75 or 76 instead of what he has now (77 is it?) wouldn't be unreasonable, but then, you wrote "low REC" and I wouldn't say 75 is that low. 
Edited by Anderis on 01-06-2014 17:25
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| Anderis |
Posted on 01-06-2014 17:36
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Domestique
Posts: 471
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And I must say I'm a supporter of "benefit of the doubt" approach. So that we shouldn't lower rider's skills (maybe a drop by 1 would be acceptable) the first time he does worse than his stats in the game would suggest. We only should do this if something is beginning to become a scheme sugestting a rider is not as good at something as he used to be.
For example: Hesjedal shouldn't have his REC lowered by much after this Giro, even if he has shown some weakness in 3rd week, because it could have been a one-off and he might do better on next occassion, so better keep an option for players to achieve him results simillar to what he used to be achieving. But if in next GT he goes for overall and shows the same kind of weakness, then you may decrease his REC considerably.
We should treat the game as an alternative scenario to reality. If rider had a bad season due to things that probably won't repeat in the game (crashes, ilnesses etc.), then we shouldn't lower his stats by much and allow players to enjoy scoring good results this rider in the game. For these reason, I insisted several months ago that Hesjedal shouldn't be lowered by much after 2013. Some people suggested he was done for good results and should have his skills lowered drastically, but the evidence showed it was rather bad luck than lack of capabilities and Ryder proved me right having decent Giro this year. Imagine someone listened to them, and then we would have Hesjedal with 74 or 75 MO in the DB and it would be very unlikely for anyone playing Garmin to go for top10 in Giro as he has actually done.
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| Unguru30 |
Posted on 01-06-2014 19:09
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Quintana-82 MO, 71 TT
Uran-79 MO, 75 TT
Aru-79 MO, 68 TT
Majka-78 MO, 72 TT
Pozzovivo-78 MO, 73 TT
Rolland-78 MO, 69 TT
Evans-77 MO, 74 TT, very low REC
Kelderman-77 MO, 75 TT, low REC
Kiserlovski-77 MO, 69 TT
Hesjedal-77 MO, 73 TT
Poels-76 MO, 72 TT
Duarte-77 MO
Vuillermoz-75 MO
Thurau-72 MO
Arredondo-76 MO, 68 TT (based on his Tirreno TT), higher FTR
Brambilla-74 MO, 71 TT
Battaglin-72 MO
Goos-71 MO
Rogers-76 MO, higher DO
Ulissi-77 MO, 78 HIL, higher ACC, 73 TT
Monfort-75 MO
Geniez-74 MO
Cataldo-higher FTR
Wellens-71/72 MO, higher FTR
Geschke-71 MO
Preidler-71 MO
Seb. Henao-74 MO, higher REC
Sprinters the same imo, but:
Matthews-74 HIL
Swift-70 MO, 73 HIL
Nizzolo-maybe 78 SP, not sure
Van Emden- Reputation International 
Edited by Unguru30 on 01-06-2014 19:10
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| Jesleyh |
Posted on 01-06-2014 20:10
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Tour de France Champion
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Actually seems quite accurate to me, Unguru
Feyenoord(football) and Kelderman fanboy
PCMdaily Awards: 12x nomination, 9x runner-up, 0x win.
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| atlanta |
Posted on 01-06-2014 20:19
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1220
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Why would Kiserlovski deserve 77 he was embarrasing most annonymous top 10 i have ever seen. If anyting Poels should have 77 this guy would have been top 5 easily if he was riding for himself, was the strongest on Zoncolon. |
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| valverde321 |
Posted on 01-06-2014 20:21
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World Champion
Posts: 12986
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PCM$: 530.00
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Jesleyh wrote:
Actually seems quite accurate to me, Unguru
Yeah, dont really disagree with anything there.
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| jph27 |
Posted on 01-06-2014 20:26
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Team Leader
Posts: 7339
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PCM$: 900.00
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Vuillermoz should maybe be 76MO. Worked for Pozzovivo all week and still finished 11th. But then 75 isn't a huge difference. |
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| atlanta |
Posted on 01-06-2014 20:29
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I_Mayo wrote:
admirschleck wrote:
TimoCycling wrote:
I_Mayo wrote:
TimoCycling wrote:
hollyghost54 wrote:
poels: flat;71 mountain;76 downhill;69 tt;73 pr;70 sp: 61 acc: 75 end:73 res:72 rec;74 hil:76 att:76
Weird thing for me is that Poels is way better than 76, except he is sooo inconsistent...
No, he is no way better. Every rider has his good days, so giving him rating of 76 or 77 that would allow him to battle for top 10 in GT is more than enough.
You saw him at Zoncolan?
That's just one good way. As there's no "consistency" in PCM, I can only agree with I_Mayo. He's no where near 77MO level.
I actually think that he might deserve 77 like I stated above, but comments like "you saw him in Zoncolan?", won't make it. I saw him at Val Martello, so giving " way more" than 76 as Timo suggested, which would be what 80 ?????, just doesn't seem logical to me at all.
Course the comment is fine this the bloody Zoncolon tell me when you see a domestique drop most of the top 10 guys?. Poels has looked good even before the Giro he is on his way back. |
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| Unguru30 |
Posted on 01-06-2014 21:09
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Amateur
Posts: 15
Joined: 01-07-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Thanks guys!  I forgot some riders though, like Baaso.
atlanta wrote:
Why would Kiserlovski deserve 77 he was embarrasing most annonymous top 10 i have ever seen. If anyting Poels should have 77 this guy would have been top 5 easily if he was riding for himself, was the strongest on Zoncolon.
He needs 77 MO in order to be able to contend for top 10 in Giro. There are a lot of GC riders with 77 MO in the game, so 76 wouldn't be enough. Also, he was quite strong early in the mountains.
jph27 wrote:
Vuillermoz should maybe be 76MO. Worked for Pozzovivo all week and still finished 11th. But then 75 isn't a huge difference.
75 is more than enough imo. His competition for places 11-15 wasn't so big, with Basso out of form, Delfino losing time early and focusing on breaks and Poels having to protect the Maglia Rosa of Uran for some stages. |
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| TimoCycling |
Posted on 01-06-2014 21:15
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Sprinter
Posts: 1765
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I disagree with a few:
77 MO is way too high for Ulissi
76 MO is better for Duarte
74 MO for Henao should be 73 IMO
Kelderman's rec should be atleast in the low 70s, he didn't get worse that bad. Only wasn't stronger than the others in the real mountain stages, don't think that was because of bad recovery. |
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| Unguru30 |
Posted on 01-06-2014 21:30
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Amateur
Posts: 15
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TimoCycling wrote:
I disagree with a few:
77 MO is way too high for Ulissi
76 MO is better for Duarte
74 MO for Henao should be 73 IMO
Kelderman's rec should be atleast in the low 70s, he didn't get worse that bad. Only wasn't stronger than the others in the real mountain stages, don't think that was because of bad recovery.
He won a stage which featured the Carpegna, so as long as his REC is 69-70 it won't affect anything.
77 may indeed be too much because Duarte is very inconstant, but he finished second on Montecopiolo ahead af all the favourites, besides Aru, and second on Tre Cime di Lavaredo last year.
Henao-maybe 73 is better
Kederman was bad in the MTT and pretty bad on Panarotta. |
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