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PCMdaily DB Stat Discussion
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 19-04-2015 21:49
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18168
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
@Manx Half the fun of this stat thread, is all of us debating over single points, just be grateful that .5 points don't exist.
I know and it's why i generally stay the hell away from here.
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| TankNL |
Posted on 19-04-2015 22:11
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Domestique
Posts: 440
Joined: 19-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Kiserlovski01 wrote:
Due to an outdated database, I'm still looking for accurate stats for:
- Sam Bennett (+potential level?)
- Niccolo Bonifazio (+potential level?)
- Sacha Modolo (backup stats?)
- Davide Cimolai (+potential level?)
I can only tell you what I've calculated based on FINAL results of the riders;
| CyclistName | FLA | MOU | HIL | TT | PRO | COB | SPR | ACC | DWN | FTR | STA | RES | REC | POP | | BENNETT | 67 | 58 | 61 | 56 | 57 | 60 | 75 | 75 | 65 | 72 | 64 | 64 | 59 | 31 | | BONIFAZIO | 67 | 59 | 70 | 55 | 58 | 53 | 74 | 74 | 73 | 75 | 73 | 74 | 62 | 45 | | MODOLO | 73 | 59 | 61 | 59 | 59 | 60 | 78 | 78 | 66 | 73 | 74 | 64 | 61 | 55 | | CIMOLAI | 70 | 60 | 68 | 59 | 58 | 61 | 75 | 75 | 70 | 75 | 73 | 73 | 63 | 47 |
here is the latest version; https://pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread....st_1051395
Edited by TankNL on 19-04-2015 22:13
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| TankNL |
Posted on 19-04-2015 22:16
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Domestique
Posts: 440
Joined: 19-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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AiZaK wrote:
M. Paterski need a push in hills, 73/74???
I can only tell you what I've calculated based on FINAL results of the riders;
| CyclistName | FLA | MOU | HIL | TT | PRO | COB | SPR | ACC | DWN | FTR | STA | RES | REC | POP | | PATERSKI | 65 | 66 | 74 | 60 | 63 | 59 | 65 | 67 | 74 | 74 | 73 | 74 | 64 | 43 |
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 19-04-2015 22:21
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
Joined: 13-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Maybe fine but I think he needs more flat about 69 |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 19-04-2015 23:01
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Sprinter
Posts: 1961
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Paul23 wrote:
Ok, what did we learn out of the AGR?
That Matthews needs a higher HI stat.
That no-one else can match Gilberts pace uphill.
But to change something, we need to wait until LBL is done.
Not much really because Amstel Gold is not really a great indicator for the hill stat to be changed drastically, that comes more on FW and LBL.
I have Matthews at 76 (same as Gallopin who finished 6th), I'd suggest possibly moving him to a max of 77 to match GVA and Sagan's hill stat of 77 both Matthews and Sagan have now finished 3rd in this race. For example if Matthews was better than this he would've won the sprint at the end given that he was the only sprinter there.
Gilbert only injects this type of pace on climbs like the Cauberg (a long rolling climb) if he could also do this at the FW and LBL then he would be the best Ardennes rider, but as he's only ever won one FW and one LBL it shows that for such a famous rider that he is pretty one dimensional in what he can do.
The hill stat in the game is a problem, as it doesn't recognize riders that are good for going up steep gradients and those that aren't. The game could do with a third climbing stat that deals with this type of thing and then it could be applied to both the mtn and hill stat.
Thinking about it though it would probably be too hard to apply, so I guess we have to just do our best with what we've got.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 19-04-2015 23:11
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 20-04-2015 09:19
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World Champion
Posts: 14501
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 8500.00
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Yeah, the problem is that there are 3 kinds of hill:
- Short Flemish hills (cobbled or not), where guys like Cancellara, Boonen or Vanmarcke can follow the best.
- Medium Hills (Cauberg-like) ideal for Gilbert and as of yesterday Matthews.
- The harder hills in LBL and Lombardia, more for Valverde and Purito.
You can play a bit with the Hill/Mo ratio, but results will never be perfect.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Ton1Mart1n |
Posted on 20-04-2015 11:32
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Domestique
Posts: 400
Joined: 14-06-2011
PCM$: 200.00
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What would you give Gilbert in ACC?
“When it’s hurting you, that’s when you can make a difference”
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| matt17br |
Posted on 20-04-2015 15:27
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 10525
Joined: 28-09-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Ton1Mart1n wrote:
What would you give Gilbert in ACC?
I'd give him 82 at the moment, although many would argue that 83 would be deserved as well. Both are fine, though 
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 29-09-2024 20:26
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Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
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| gundir |
Posted on 20-04-2015 16:14
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Free Agent
Posts: 136
Joined: 17-09-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Paul23 wrote:
Ok, what did we learn out of the AGR?
That Matthews needs a higher HI stat.
That no-one else can match Gilberts pace uphill.
But to change something, we need to wait until LBL is done.
Not much really because Amstel Gold is not really a great indicator for the hill stat to be changed drastically, that comes more on FW and LBL.
I have Matthews at 76 (same as Gallopin who finished 6th), I'd suggest possibly moving him to a max of 77 to match GVA and Sagan's hill stat of 77 both Matthews and Sagan have now finished 3rd in this race. For example if Matthews was better than this he would've won the sprint at the end given that he was the only sprinter there.
Gilbert only injects this type of pace on climbs like the Cauberg (a long rolling climb) if he could also do this at the FW and LBL then he would be the best Ardennes rider, but as he's only ever won one FW and one LBL it shows that for such a famous rider that he is pretty one dimensional in what he can do.
The hill stat in the game is a problem, as it doesn't recognize riders that are good for going up steep gradients and those that aren't. The game could do with a third climbing stat that deals with this type of thing and then it could be applied to both the mtn and hill stat.
Thinking about it though it would probably be too hard to apply, so I guess we have to just do our best with what we've got.
Gallopin at 76? He already proved so much in the Hilly classics. He won San Sebastian, rode top-10 another time and also a top-10 in the Worlds. He deserves at least 78 If Gilbert and Co. Get 82
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| fidjim2013 |
Posted on 21-04-2015 17:39
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 348
Joined: 20-11-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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Gallopin and matthews need to be 78 hill |
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 21-04-2015 17:47
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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Matthews 77 or 78(but more 77)
Gallopin 76 max
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 21-04-2015 23:10
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
Joined: 13-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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We must wait until sunday in Liege and we can adjust their stats better |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 22-04-2015 19:30
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Sprinter
Posts: 1961
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Well at the moment we haven't learnt too much because today Gilbert, Vanendert and Martin all crashed out. Let's hope we get everybody staying on their bikes until the LBL.
Only real surprise I guess is Alaphilippe. |
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| Naxela |
Posted on 22-04-2015 19:48
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Stagiare
Posts: 169
Joined: 25-02-2015
PCM$: 200.00
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Right now i would almost put Alaphilippe 78 regardless how he perform in Liege, he been pretty consistent in both Amstel and Fleche, pretty unsure if his sprint should be downgraded though? i know he did well last year in Pais Vasco or Catalunya but he havent shown to much besides that.
Gallopin is fine on 76 for me, if you look at his results he never get much results on stages with a hill finish, but thats a hard one, no more than 77 at least, the same for Matthews.
Anyway what about Vuillermoz, 76? |
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 22-04-2015 21:58
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
Joined: 13-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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In my opinion just now I woul change:
Valverde 83
Gallopin 77
Matthews 78
Alaphilippe 77
Sagan 76
Vuillermoz 76
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| Naxela |
Posted on 22-04-2015 22:10
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Stagiare
Posts: 169
Joined: 25-02-2015
PCM$: 200.00
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AiZaK wrote:
In my opinion just now I woul change:
Valverde 83
Gallopin 77
Matthews 78
Alaphilippe 77
Sagan 76
Vuillermoz 76
I don't get why people would want to upgrade Valverde's hill stat, his stat is already reflected on his previous season where he finished second in Lombardia, second in liege, fourth in Amstel, third in the World championship and won the Fleche wallonne like this year, i would rather see Purito downgraded by -1 and Gilbert remain at his same stat, that's almost the same as an upgrade.
Edited by Naxela on 22-04-2015 22:13
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| Paul23 |
Posted on 22-04-2015 23:09
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4411
Joined: 10-08-2011
PCM$: 400.00
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AiZaK wrote:
In my opinion just now I woul change:
Valverde 83
Gallopin 77
Matthews 78
Alaphilippe 77
Sagan 76
Vuillermoz 76
Atm, i would go for:
Valverde 82
Gallopin 76
Matthews 78
Alaphilippe 77
Sagan 77
Vuillermoz 76
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 22-04-2015 23:19
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Sprinter
Posts: 1961
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Valverde at 82 is perfect as he also has good acc and sta as well, making him higher would make him too good. remember this is a man that normally finishes 2nd or 3rd instead of winning, most of his victories came much earlier in his career.
To see how good Gilbert, Rodriquez and Martin really are we'll have to wait till Sunday anyway.
The comments about Gallopin are also correct. He's not a true hill climber but a man much like Wellens in that he will attack early and try and keep it going, if memory serves me right he won San Sebastian like this, so a good fighter stat is ideal for him and should have about 77 hill max. If he wins LBL then I'll change my mind.
The problem is with the peloton riding hard to the bottom of the last climb, it allows the riders that can go hard for a few minutes to compete for victory, which is why we get people like Matthews and even Gallopin competing for victory.
To find out what true hill stats should be, the Ardennes classics need a small select group of favourites to break free and then fight it out between them over the final hills, as the GC guys do on the big mountain stages. This was how the Ardennes classics always used to be.
I've also noticed on some db's that Betancur still has really high hill, hell I could ride up a hill faster than this guy!
Edited by Tafiolmo on 22-04-2015 23:26
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 26-04-2015 17:24
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Sprinter
Posts: 1961
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Now that the Ardennes classics are over what have we learnt if anything? As yet again we've been robbed of the best guys being fit for most of these races as was the case with the cobbled classics.
These were the top 22 hill stats I had based on last season mostly below. A number of these riders didn't ride at the Ardennes or I didn't notice them. Others like Betancur are nowhere near as good as they were and most importantly riders like Gerrans, Martin and Gilbert can't really be changed as they didn't race either fully fit or kept on falling off their bikes.
Personally I see no reason to change the main hill stat for most of the leading riders, but acc and as always stamina can be addressed. The real finds of this year have been G.Caruso (he was good last year) Bardet looked strong and of course Alaphilippe has made the biggest impression.
(Based on Last Season)
Alejandro Valverde 82
Joaquim Rodriguez 82
Philippe Gilbert 81
Dan Martin 81
Michal Kwiatkowski 81
Daniel Moreno 80
Simon Gerrans 80
Alberto Contador 79
Carlos Betancur 79
Vincenzo Nibali 79
Rui Costa 79
Diego Ulissi 79
Jelle Vanendert 79
Nairo Quintana 78
Rigoberto Uran 78
Domenico Pozzovivo 78
Roman Kreuziger 78
Richie Porte 78
Sergio Henao 78
Bauke Mollema 78
Tom-Velte Slagter 78
Michael Albasini 78
Edited by Tafiolmo on 26-04-2015 17:25
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 26-04-2015 17:50
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World Champion
Posts: 14501
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 8500.00
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I'd up Valverde one way or another. He was incredibly strong this year. Slight upgrades needed (as you say) for Bardet and Caruso, decent upgrade for Meintjes and Teuns and a huge upgrade for Alaphillipe.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
