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Sky Doping/Hate Thread
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 24-07-2012 16:28
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It is. But techinicaally it could happen. So if all the facts are circumstantial, you are saying no one has ever doped, not me.
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 15:36
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 24-07-2012 16:31
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baseballlover312 wrote:
It is. But techinicaally it could happen. So if all the facts are circumstantial, you are saying no one has ever doped, not me.
i never said all facts are circumstantial
i said that all the facts so far in this thread are circumstantial
i said what i accept as proof, you can have a different opinion on that
i know that hundreds of cyclists have doped, such as Riis, Landis, Contador, LeMond, Hinault, Virenque (regardless of what he says), etc.... oh and of course Armstrong 
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 24-07-2012 16:37
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TheManxMissile wrote:
baseballlover312 wrote:
It is. But techinicaally it could happen. So if all the facts are circumstantial, you are saying no one has ever doped, not me.
i never said all facts are circumstantial
i said that all the facts so far in this thread are circumstantial
i said what i accept as proof, you can have a different opinion on that
i know that hundreds of cyclists have doped, such as Riis, Landis, Contador, LeMond, Hinault, Virenque (regardless of what he says), etc.... oh and of course Armstrong
But it is your opininion of what is hard evidence.
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 24-07-2012 16:40
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baseballlover312 wrote:
TheManxMissile wrote:
baseballlover312 wrote:
It is. But techinicaally it could happen. So if all the facts are circumstantial, you are saying no one has ever doped, not me.
i never said all facts are circumstantial
i said that all the facts so far in this thread are circumstantial
i said what i accept as proof, you can have a different opinion on that
i know that hundreds of cyclists have doped, such as Riis, Landis, Contador, LeMond, Hinault, Virenque (regardless of what he says), etc.... oh and of course Armstrong
But it is your opininion of what is hard evidence.
yes it is
so i guess we can move on
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 24-07-2012 16:41
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Thank you. This was a pointless debate on both ends. 
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 24-07-2012 16:57
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baseballlover312 wrote:
CrueTrue wrote:
And what are you doing when you claim Team Sky are a bunch of dopers? Stating facts?
Again, I'm not defending Team Sky, but it's ridiculous to see your counter-"arguments".
Yes! I have stated facts as evidence before! Thank you again for clarifying!
Why is it proof of doping that Team Sky has participated in a training camp on Tenerife?
Why is it proof of doping that Team Sky has hired a Dutch doctor?
Why is it proof of doping that Team Sky is riding better than you expected them to?
Let me help you: It's not. |
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 24-07-2012 17:03
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That the watts they are producing could only be done at the ultimate human being. There Dutch doctor has always triggered a spike in performance and has always ended up having doped that team. Froome barely had results and was set back by pararsites, then is the ultimate human being at 450 watts. If that isn't evidence to some degree, then evidence of any kind against anybody does not exist.
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| pcm2009fan |
Posted on 24-07-2012 17:04
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ruben wrote:
We should really concentrate on the facts. Like that I'm awesome and you should all worship me.
Finally someone instils some sense into the thread. All hail his highness ruben!
In all seriousness though, if anyone looks back a few pages you can find the reported wattage figures which suggest that Froome is almost certainly juiced up, and the rest of the top 4 seem rather probable. So, amongst plenty others, there are strong medical implications that Froome & Wiggo have been a little naughty with the pills.
Barring a (non-forthcoming) confession, that's ultimately what these 50+ pages of speculation and frustration boils down to, and the purpose this thread serves for. That's as close and reliable an answer we are going to get.
And, as far as I can see, pretty much everything else that either side has argued is just pure speculation. |
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| Coop |
Posted on 24-07-2012 17:06
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CrueTrue wrote:
baseballlover312 wrote:
CrueTrue wrote:
And what are you doing when you claim Team Sky are a bunch of dopers? Stating facts?
Again, I'm not defending Team Sky, but it's ridiculous to see your counter-"arguments".
Yes! I have stated facts as evidence before! Thank you again for clarifying!
Why is it proof of doping that Team Sky has participated in a training camp on Tenerife?
Why is it proof of doping that Team Sky has hired a Dutch doctor?
Why is it proof of doping that Team Sky is riding better than you expected them to?
Let me help you: It's not.
And yet Mr. Wiggins thinks that if there is any suspicion of a team that dopes that they should prove their clean before they're allowed to compete. All we're asking is the same thing. Their performance coupled with their sudden lack of transparency is proof enough to provide the suspicion for them to prove to everyone that they are who they say they are. They can't have it both ways! |
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 24-07-2012 17:09
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Coop wrote:
And yet Mr. Wiggins thinks that if there is any suspicion of a team that dopes that they should prove their clean before they're allowed to compete. All we're asking is the same thing. Their performance coupled with their sudden lack of transparency is proof enough to provide the suspicion for them to prove to everyone that they are who they say they are. They can't have it both ways!
How do they be transparent?
As far as i'm aware they arn't hiding anything
They have a suspicious doctor yes, thay admit he has a past
What exactly do you want to know about sky?
Do you want them to show you the exact drugs they are using
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 24-07-2012 17:14
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They specifically said they would never hire someone suspicious. S that's exactly wha they did.
What Wiggins said is that anybody with a suspicious doctor should not not be even allowed a racing lliscense if they do not prove their innocence. So why doens't that apply to him, just everyone else?
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 24-07-2012 17:32
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baseballlover312 wrote:
That the watts they are producing could only be done at the ultimate human being. There Dutch doctor has always triggered a spike in performance and has always ended up having doped that team. Froome barely had results and was set back by pararsites, then is the ultimate human being at 450 watts. If that isn't evidence to some degree, then evidence of any kind against anybody does not exist.
The Dutch doctor is a game of connecting the dots. Vaughters already did a great job at explaining why that's not a clever thing to do.
In terms of the watts discussion, I never understood the theory behind it, but we've moved from "that can't be done by a human being" in the Armstrong era till a point where it's actually humanly possible.
As I've already said, I don't support Team Sky, and I wholeheartedly agree that there's several things that's looking stupid, especially that they hired Leinders, given their no cycling doctors and no non-UK doctors-policy.
I also agree that they all (especially Rogers, Froome) improved more than what seems plausible. And the fact that Wiggins has blocked e.g. Shane Stokes on Twitter isn't exactly evidence of a team being open minded.
My point was that especially you, baseballlover312, is coming up with rather stupid answers towards people who don't agree with you.
As I said: What you've just posted are not facts. You're assuming that Leinders dopes up Sky. And apparently, you're saying that Sky is producing numbers that are actually humanly possible. And then you complain about Froome who has improved more than you thought he would.
None of that are proof of anything. It's just as valid (or non-valid) as a fanboy saying Sky wouldn't dope because there's too much at stake. |
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 24-07-2012 18:08
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I am not saying that he doped Sky as a fact. I said that it has happened before with him, whcih is a fact.
They are humanly possible for Superman. If you with the thinnest, strongest, best possible person that could ever be created, you might be able to come up with those numbers.
I'm not even going to respond to the Froome statement again.
And when people say things like, "it would risk everything". They already did that by hiring Leinders in the first place!
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| CrueTrue |
Posted on 24-07-2012 18:24
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It's not really a fact that Leinders doped anyone. It's fair to think that he did, but all we have is Theo de Rooy's word for it.
If it was a fact, he'd have been banned by now, I hope.
As I already said, I didn't enter this to actually debate over Sky. I was getting annoyed at your "you're a fan boy and you're just making assumptions" posts. That's not debating. Instead, you should read what people are saying and try to use counter-arguments rather than just come up with the same one-liner. |
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 24-07-2012 18:25
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But what they are saying is so out there you can't counter.
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 24-07-2012 20:02
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TheManxMissile wrote:
i know that hundreds of cyclists have doped, such as (...) LeMond (...)
Care to elaborate ?
@baseballlover312 : all those elements are not proofs. They're evidences, hints, clues, etc. Call them what you want, but not facts.
I have very very little doubts about what Sky are doing, but I'm not going to make the blunder of writing it clearly, because I couldn't prove it (all I could do would be coming up with evidences, which would remain that : evidences). |
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 24-07-2012 20:45
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Exactly. Nothing is fact so there is no proof of anything ever. Anything could be wrong with it. There is now way to prove anything at any point because everything is circumstantial.
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 24-07-2012 20:53
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Aquarius wrote:
TheManxMissile wrote:
i know that hundreds of cyclists have doped, such as (...) LeMond (...)
Care to elaborate ?
sorry i got that wrong
i was thinking of another point, which i didnt make as it didnt make sense, but must have dropped LeMond in without thinking
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 25-07-2012 06:53
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This debate is becoming a bit stupid and pointless, isn't it?
So to ease a situation a bit, i have a fun fact from the past. I am now watching Tour 2007 replays this week (yeah i know i am a masochist  ) from ITV and there are usually some questions and answers in the middle of the stage.
During the second week one funny qustion was asked - "Is their any possiblity that some of the British riders on the start this year (Thomas,Wegelius,Millar,Wiggins, Cav) will be future Tour winners/contenders?"
Answer from reporters (not exact words,but same meaning):
Well, i think from these, no one has even a small realistic chance to do it. Maybe Geraint Thomas, because he is the youngest rider of the Tour (21) and has great potential. Also Cavendish has maybe a bright future ahead, but of course only for the sprint finishes, he is damn fast.
Wegelius and Millar are the very good experienced riders also...
And guess what?No a single word about Wiggo, the actual winner of Tour de France five years later. And why? Well, beacuse he was +30minutes in every mountain stage as the TT specialist and abyssmal climber, coming with grupetto every day, so if somebody told them he will win it one day, they would call for the mental hospital i think...
But they of course were not able to forecast the holy light which shined on Wiggins between 2007-2009 and made him a climber, while his TT abilities also grown up at the same time.
Not a proof or anything significant, but i just found it hillarious.
P.S. I am now ahead of second rest day, where all the shite start coming up...
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 25-07-2012 06:54
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| sutty68 |
Posted on 25-07-2012 11:44
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Avin Wargunnson -
This debate is becoming a bit stupid and pointless, isn't it?
I couldn't agree more  |
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
