|
The Difficult Topics
|
| kumazan |
Posted on 13-09-2013 13:48
|
Team Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 02-07-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
Atlantius wrote:
The thing is that moving jobs out of the country is a bit like wetting your pants to get warm. Yes, you get more for your money in a short time, but then the developing countries start catching up and increase demand and thus prices of the goods. In the meantime we have lost the base of our economy and suddenly stand without anything except a high living standard that we no longer can afford. That's what happening all over the west at the moment.
To be perfectly clear I'm all for free trade and helping poor countries develop by trading with them, but we shouldn't fool ourselves into believing that moving production elsewhere benefits us on the long term. I have seen too many local communities die and/or struggle to survive because of that. Maybe we can get cheap stuff, but without anything to sell in return it won't benefit much in the long run.
Yes. The alternative is to let companies stay here and die a quick death due to their prices not being competitve in the world market. Thus that's not even good in the short term. Or we could go all protectionist, but it didn't work before, it won't work now that the economy is a truly global one.
Atlantius wrote:
Nothing reduces tax revenue as much as people not having a job though...
Sure, and that's why you just can't move all production away. Maybe I didn't make my point clear, I'm not saying that job loss int he West is good for us, but that without those cheap labor markets in Asia our economies are fucked.
But hey, we can keep complaining that we lost our industries, or we could go and produce more advanced stuff that can't get produced by dudes who earn a dish of rice in exchange. And keep in mind that the industrialization of those countries mean that their wages will go up, eventually losing their competitive advantage.
Atlantius wrote:
Take Detroit as the extreme example. It used to be a booming city of mainly car industries. But then the productions started being moved to cheaper places. IT was ok at first because the core remained and the companies stayed. But then slowly the other bits were moved to cheaper places as well and now a city with just under 2 million inhabitants in the 50's are left with 700.000 inhabitants and 16 % unemployment rates.
That what happens to the economy on the long term when businesses move to cheaper places.
No. Detroit was on its way down before the automotive indutries left. Detroit is the result of a not diversified enough economy and the failure of those industries they had in their market. Detroit was already doomed before they left.
Edit: Ah, I see I go Zabel'd by Shorts on some points. 
Edited by kumazan on 13-09-2013 13:49
|
| |
|
|
| Levi4life |
Posted on 13-09-2013 22:15
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4882
Joined: 16-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
kumazan wrote:
Levi4life wrote:
Proliferation seems like the biggest concern. International norms matter.
This may be the final trigger, but by itself, without the factors I mentioned, is nothing. Otherwise, where is the action against non-NPT countries like India, Pakistan or Israel who have dozens of nukes, which are way more dangerous than CWs?
In all three of those cases, at least one security council country helped in the development of nuclear weapons programs. India and Pakistan got their first reactors from Canada under the US's Atoms for Peace program. France helped Israel. China gave Pakistan the designs for missiles and a tested nuclear warhead, while unscrupulous German companies sold much of the materials to Abdul Qadeer Khan's program, Khan who had stolen designs for gas centrifuges from URENCO. These countries needed help from the outside.
And once these countries have nuclear weapons, there's not a whole lot the international community can do. The only state to disarm to date is South Africa. South Africa was attempting to re-enter the international system. Dismantling apartheid policies and disarming were seen as ways to show their seriousness. Also their nuclear program cost more than they could afford in upkeep.
Chemical weapons are more dangerous because it's much easier to develop them without help, they take less time and they are much cheaper. Poor man's nukes. It's more likely the countries I mentioned before would counter a Syrian chemical weapons threat with their own chemical weapons.
Edited by Levi4life on 13-09-2013 22:31
|
| |
|
|
| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 03-10-2013 07:12
|
World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
|
I will just leave it here.
https://www.indepe...53349.html
|
| |
|
|
| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 03-10-2013 08:35
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
|
Not going to win, so no issue. If he does win then still no real issue, its a Nobel Prize unless it's science people don't really care
|
| |
|
|
| cio93 |
Posted on 03-10-2013 11:15
|
World Champion
Posts: 10845
Joined: 29-10-2007
PCM$: 500.00
|
Haha, I didn't know The Onion took over the Independent's website...
|
| |
|
|
| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 03-10-2013 11:20
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
Joined: 27-07-2011
PCM$: 10438.70
|
That would be great!
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
| |
|
|
| Bojan |
Posted on 03-10-2013 11:22
|
Under 23
Posts: 74
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
Would be deserved. Freaking Obama won one, just for being semi-black. |
| |
|
|
| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 21:58
|
Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
|
|
| IP: None |
|
|
| Atlantius |
Posted on 03-10-2013 11:25
|
Team Leader
Posts: 6795
Joined: 21-07-2010
PCM$: 200.00
|
Bojan wrote:
Would be deserved. Freaking Obama won one, just for being semi-black.
I wouldn't call it deserved as long as the situation in Chechnya remains as it is and critical journalists in Russia tend to disappear. It would however be just as deserved as when Obama got if for not being George Bush.
That was a joke as well...
|
| |
|
|
| kumazan |
Posted on 03-10-2013 11:39
|
Team Leader
Posts: 6662
Joined: 02-07-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
Who the hell cares about the Nobel Peace Prize anyway? Even a freaking Razzie is more prestigious.
|
| |
|
|
| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 03-10-2013 11:43
|
World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
|
Yep, the prize value decreased enormously after likes of Arafat, Obama and European Union won it.
|
| |
|
|
| itisix |
Posted on 03-10-2013 12:07
|
Free Agent
Posts: 142
Joined: 26-07-2011
PCM$: 200.00
|
kumazan wrote:
Atlantius wrote:
Take Detroit as the extreme example. It used to be a booming city of mainly car industries. But then the productions started being moved to cheaper places. IT was ok at first because the core remained and the companies stayed. But then slowly the other bits were moved to cheaper places as well and now a city with just under 2 million inhabitants in the 50's are left with 700.000 inhabitants and 16 % unemployment rates.
That what happens to the economy on the long term when businesses move to cheaper places.
No. Detroit was on its way down before the automotive indutries left. Detroit is the result of a not diversified enough economy and the failure of those industries they had in their market. Detroit was already doomed before they left.
The biggest problem with Detroit (as any big car company in america) is that they didn't adapt to the market. They kept producing big ass cars that consumed a lot of fuel thinking that American Joe would prefer those big cars to anything foreign. Problem was, slowly other brands started to creep in with good prices and much lower consumption. That is why toyota got into the position of, at one time, being the best selling brand in the US.
Now, most american brands are either dead, dying of relegated to "niche markets". Look at what happened to the hummer. Ford seems to be the one doing OK, because they had a strong presence in the european market and managed to send european models over there quick. Even the smart car, that everyone said wouldn't sell at all, had some results.
In this modern market, it looks like the way to go is to have low company taxes and higher worker taxes. While having high worker taxes may not please people much, having low company taxes allows companies to stay. It is happening now in the EU as there is a lot of debate about some countries having lower taxes and "stealing" away from everyone else.
But, in the end, no one cares. How can a company compete if the employees only work 40 hours a week, have a half "decent" minimum wage, there are a lot of rules to follow in terms of health and safety... while in some of the "producing" countries, 14 yo kids (or much younger) work 60 or 80 hours a week, ear not much more than a bowl of rice and there are absolutely no concern with health and safety... if they die, they get some more, so why should they even care if we don't?? And our governments encourage this, they go to china and sign agreements and such. all smiles, all luxury. It's just disgusting if you ask me. But, employees are sometimes to blame. They don't work hard and thing they are entitled to extra break time, to coffee time, to take some stationary supplies home, etc... and then they strike because they want more money.
You Maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!
|
| |
|
|
| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 03-10-2013 12:30
|
World Champion
Posts: 14236
Joined: 20-06-2011
PCM$: 300.00
|
Welcome to capitalism! I am fed up with that too. And as you, i dont like US hypocrisy with China and such places (especially when you see US doing policeman (without any mandate) everywhere else).
On the other hand, country like China now helps the global economy to even exist, as we are too focused and dependand on low cost mass production, producing more than we can spend. Even worse when poor half of the world is dying on lack of things we throw away to bin. Sick world really, but i dont see solution. 
Actually communism sounds like the best system that was ever invented, but again it badly transforms into dictatorship socialism, which is bad in every aspect.
Edited by Avin Wargunnson on 03-10-2013 12:31
|
| |
|
|
| jph27 |
Posted on 03-10-2013 20:11
|
Team Leader
Posts: 7339
Joined: 20-03-2010
PCM$: 900.00
|
Can I tempt anyone into a political compass test to see where we stand? The URL is www.politicalcompass.org
I come in as -7 on the Left (-10) to Right (10) and -4 on the Libertarian (-10) to Authoritarian (10). Too left wing for any major western party it seems. |
| |
|
|
| Crommy |
Posted on 03-10-2013 20:15
|
World Champion
Posts: 10018
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 200.00
|
Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Yep, the prize value decreased enormously after likes of Arafat, Obama and European Union won it.
Hey, that Nobel Peace Prize takes pride of place on my resumé 
|
| |
|
|
| cio93 |
Posted on 03-10-2013 20:24
|
World Champion
Posts: 10845
Joined: 29-10-2007
PCM$: 500.00
|
jph27 wrote:
Can I tempt anyone into a political compass test to see where we stand? The URL is www.politicalcompass.org
I come in as -7 on the Left (-10) to Right (10) and -4 on the Libertarian (-10) to Authoritarian (10). Too left wing for any major western party it seems.
Thanks for the hint!
Economic Left/Right: -5.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.87
Pretty much where I saw myself before.
|
| |
|
|
| 547984 |
Posted on 03-10-2013 22:31
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5008
Joined: 29-01-2013
PCM$: 200.00
|
Economic Left/Right: 2.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.64
I though I'd lean more libertarian but I rarely used strongly agree/disagree, so it's more centered.
baseballlover312, 06-03-14 : "Nuke Moscow...Don't worry Russia, we've got plenty of love to go around your cities"
Sarah Palin, 08-03-14 (CPAC, on Russian aggression) : "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a nuke is a good guy with a nuke"
Big thanks to jdog for making this AMAZING userbar! |
| |
|
|
| Levi4life |
Posted on 03-10-2013 23:09
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4882
Joined: 16-03-2007
PCM$: 200.00
|
Economic Left/Right: -4.38
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.13
According to the international chart I'm closest to the Dalai Llama. I can live with that. I thought I'd be more authoritarian to be honest, but then again it's not exactly a sophisticated quiz.
|
| |
|
|
| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 03-10-2013 23:12
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
Joined: 27-07-2011
PCM$: 10438.70
|
Economic Left/Right: 3.12
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 2.00
I've retaken it multiple times, because it's easy to misunderstand the questions. The way they switch perspectives and wording. but that's what makes it more accurate I guess.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
| |
|
|
| itisix |
Posted on 03-10-2013 23:43
|
Free Agent
Posts: 142
Joined: 26-07-2011
PCM$: 200.00
|
Economic Left/Right: -2.75
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.54
I'm practically an anarchist... what a surprise 
But I thought I would be more right wing. Contradictory, ain't it??
In the end, we make up the society.
Here in Portugal there is much debate about politicians not being trustworthy, bla, bla, bla. Some magazine placed 12 wallets with money, cards and a phone number in many world capitals around the world. In Lisbon, only one was reported to the "owner". So, who is untrustworthy??? The politicians or just everyone? Most people would not steal, but they would not return a found wallet (even with a contact inside). Is that any better?
I once got a phone call from the police that a wallet had popped up and the guy (I hardly new for professional reasons) had my phone number in it (and no other contact or details). They rang me up and I hardly remembered the name, but did recognized. Spent the good part of 2 days on the phone and phone list to find him and eventually found his home town through a company he no longer worked at and rang everyone with similar family names until his mom picked up
Edited by itisix on 03-10-2013 23:45
You Maniacs! You blew it up! Ah, damn you! God damn you all to hell!
|
| |
|
|
| 547984 |
Posted on 04-10-2013 01:54
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 5008
Joined: 29-01-2013
PCM$: 200.00
|
So many left wings!  Not that this test is reliable enough to yield an easy result...some of the personality related questions should have no bearing on the scale.
baseballlover312, 06-03-14 : "Nuke Moscow...Don't worry Russia, we've got plenty of love to go around your cities"
Sarah Palin, 08-03-14 (CPAC, on Russian aggression) : "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a nuke is a good guy with a nuke"
Big thanks to jdog for making this AMAZING userbar! |
| |
|
![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
