jseadog1 wrote:
Does anybody happen to be following the Trump FBI investigation that got underway? His tweets are hilarious. Anyone have any opinion on the Jeff Sessions case also?
I think it only happens because of the press covfefe.
jseadog1 wrote:
Does anybody happen to be following the Trump FBI investigation that got underway? His tweets are hilarious. Anyone have any opinion on the Jeff Sessions case also?
I think it only happens because of the press covfefe.
While that was definitely funny I highly doubt that is the main reason
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Looks like it's all kicking off in Spain. Can't say I'm really that clued up on the issue, although I assume it's fairly similar to the recent Scottish referendum, just with a few more old ladies getting battened. Feel free to enlighten me
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
ringo182 wrote:
Looks like it's all kicking off in Spain. Can't say I'm really that clued up on the issue, although I assume it's fairly similar to the recent Scottish referendum, just with a few more old ladies getting battened. Feel free to enlighten me
The main difference is that the Scots have been given basic rights by the UK governement, while the Catalans, even after Franco, did not get what they wanted from from Madrid.
Horrible scenes yesterday, you'd expect them from some south american dictatorship in the '80s, not a EU country anno 2017.
I'm mostly annoyed by the lack of EU reaction, they don't have to take a stance about the independence just to say that the police violence yesterday was very, very wrong.
Should Catalonia really leave Spain, they ruin themselves and Spain with that decision. They won't be let into the EU and Spain will lose their strongest part of the country.
Also it's a totally different thing to the scotish referendum since the scotish one is basically offical, whilst the spanish one is not really, since the government needs to allow it, to make it an official thing. Both sides act stupid.
Paul23 wrote:
Also it's a totally different thing to the scotish referendum since the scotish one is basically offical, whilst the spanish one is not really, since the government needs to allow it, to make it an official thing. Both sides act stupid.
This is the problem. The Catalans havn't been allowed to have an official vote. Why not? Because the Spanish government is afraid they will back independence, which will have a negative impact on the rest of Spain. So they deny their citizens a right to vote.
We've not seen such a denial in a 'western' nation in a very long time, and it's worrying.
You've got to at least give your citizens a right to vote. Like in the UK where the government allowed Scotland to hold a referendum, despite their wish to remain united.
That is crazy! I did not know they could not vote. How has that been going under the radar for so long? A major financial crisis and the world quickly forget..
Paul23 wrote:
Also it's a totally different thing to the scotish referendum since the scotish one is basically offical, whilst the spanish one is not really, since the government needs to allow it, to make it an official thing. Both sides act stupid.
This is the problem. The Catalans havn't been allowed to have an official vote. Why not? Because the Spanish government is afraid they will back independence, which will have a negative impact on the rest of Spain. So they deny their citizens a right to vote.
We've not seen such a denial in a 'western' nation in a very long time, and it's worrying.
You've got to at least give your citizens a right to vote. Like in the UK where the government allowed Scotland to hold a referendum, despite their wish to remain united.
Well, like I said. Voting for independence would be negative for spain and catalonia. Also they probably wouldn't get independence, since at those "inofficial votes", mostly only the people who want to be independent, vote, since it doesn't really matter. I think it would end up 40/60 for staying in spain.
I mean, sure they could be allowed a vote, but what happens, if they should get independence?
Catalonia won't be allowed in the EU, hence loads of companies would go away from there, FC Barcelona f.e. would instantly die, and with that a big amount of money would leave catalonia. Basically they would just ruin themselves and drag spain into that as well.
Well 2016 had at least two votes that were a lot worse for the world, so let's just give them what they want, even if we think it might go wrong. If they want to pay a price for indepence, let them.
Paul23 wrote:
Also it's a totally different thing to the scotish referendum since the scotish one is basically offical, whilst the spanish one is not really, since the government needs to allow it, to make it an official thing. Both sides act stupid.
This is the problem. The Catalans havn't been allowed to have an official vote. Why not? Because the Spanish government is afraid they will back independence, which will have a negative impact on the rest of Spain. So they deny their citizens a right to vote.
We've not seen such a denial in a 'western' nation in a very long time, and it's worrying.
You've got to at least give your citizens a right to vote. Like in the UK where the government allowed Scotland to hold a referendum, despite their wish to remain united.
Well, like I said. Voting for independence would be negative for spain and catalonia. Also they probably wouldn't get independence, since at those "inofficial votes", mostly only the people who want to be independent, vote, since it doesn't really matter. I think it would end up 40/60 for staying in spain.
I mean, sure they could be allowed a vote, but what happens, if they should get independence?
Catalonia won't be allowed in the EU, hence loads of companies would go away from there, FC Barcelona f.e. would instantly die, and with that a big amount of money would leave catalonia. Basically they would just ruin themselves and drag spain into that as well.
That's up to them to decide..
remarkable how no country has ever decided to throw away its independence
Ollfardh wrote:
Well 2016 had at least two votes that were a lot worse for the world, so let's just give them what they want, even if we think it might go wrong. If they want to pay a price for indepence, let them.
Well, which votes are you talking about? I actually can't remember anything more stupid.
The problem is that spain will pay the price as well, so why not let the full country vote?
Ollfardh wrote:
Well 2016 had at least two votes that were a lot worse for the world, so let's just give them what they want, even if we think it might go wrong. If they want to pay a price for indepence, let them.
Well, which votes are you talking about? I actually can't remember anything more stupid.
The problem is that spain will pay the price as well, so why not let the full country vote?
I assume he means Trump and Brexit.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
Ollfardh wrote:
Well 2016 had at least two votes that were a lot worse for the world, so let's just give them what they want, even if we think it might go wrong. If they want to pay a price for indepence, let them.
Well, which votes are you talking about? I actually can't remember anything more stupid.
The problem is that spain will pay the price as well, so why not let the full country vote?
That's like saying all of the EU should have voted on the Brexit..
Ollfardh wrote:
Well 2016 had at least two votes that were a lot worse for the world, so let's just give them what they want, even if we think it might go wrong. If they want to pay a price for indepence, let them.
Well, which votes are you talking about? I actually can't remember anything more stupid.
The problem is that spain will pay the price as well, so why not let the full country vote?
That's like saying all of the EU should have voted on the Brexit..
As if that really affects us, what the UK does. Nowhere near as how catalonia affects spain.
Ollfardh wrote:
Well 2016 had at least two votes that were a lot worse for the world, so let's just give them what they want, even if we think it might go wrong. If they want to pay a price for indepence, let them.
Well, which votes are you talking about? I actually can't remember anything more stupid.
The problem is that spain will pay the price as well, so why not let the full country vote?
I assume he means Trump and Brexit.
Ah well, I can understand that. I prefered Trump over Clinton and I think that Brexit is a good long term thing. I would like to have Germany out of the Euro at least, but that will never happen.
Ollfardh wrote:
Well 2016 had at least two votes that were a lot worse for the world, so let's just give them what they want, even if we think it might go wrong. If they want to pay a price for indepence, let them.
Well, which votes are you talking about? I actually can't remember anything more stupid.
The problem is that spain will pay the price as well, so why not let the full country vote?
That's like saying all of the EU should have voted on the Brexit..
As if that really affects us, what the UK does. Nowhere near as how catalonia affects spain.
1) How does one measure the impact?
2) What is an acceptable impact and what is not?
3) What are your sources for this claim?
Ollfardh wrote:
Well 2016 had at least two votes that were a lot worse for the world, so let's just give them what they want, even if we think it might go wrong. If they want to pay a price for indepence, let them.
Well, which votes are you talking about? I actually can't remember anything more stupid.
The problem is that spain will pay the price as well, so why not let the full country vote?
I assume he means Trump and Brexit.
Ah well, I can understand that. I prefered Trump over Clinton and I think that Brexit is a good long term thing. I would like to have Germany out of the Euro at least, but that will never happen.
Germany will BE Europe once the UK leaves. Who else is going to be funding the EU?
I think my initial prediction that the UK will never actually leave is starting to come true.
The Conservatives are doing a great job of getting the worst deal possible so they have the excuse to put the vote back to the public. The problem was the Brexit voters voted on what was possible from the UK leaving the EU, an independent country controlling it's own borders, making it's own laws and investing it's money into itself rather than paying it all out to Eastern Europe and getting nothing back. The government is deliberately trying to get the worst deal possible so we will never be leaving as a truly independent country. They are even talking about continuing to pay into the EU after we leave. How the bloody hell does that work?
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
Paul23 wrote:
The problem is that spain will pay the price as well, so why not let the full country vote?
I'm not an expert on the Spanish economy so am weary of answering this, but from what I know Catalonia know they will have some form of price to pay and so you may be right there (in your other post) - apparently the unionists outnumber the nationalists 60/40 irl but if you were going to vote no and some police started brutally attacking anybody who voted no matter who for you wouldn't make the effort just to vote in an illegal poll just to vote for it to not mean anything
But all of Spain voting isn't the right path either. Think of, using the UKIP agenda, how the EU had to keep Britain because Britain put so much into the EU's economy but didn't take as much. Despite if that is true or not, that sounds great for the EU, so they'd vote Britain in! But Britain, as we saw, voted themselves out.
Catalonia make Spain a lot of money (on our news it said same GDP as Portugal!) so money isn't the issue for them having independence in that they couldn't sustain a country. Spain need them for their money as well as other reasons - not losing the Basque Country to the same situation among them I guess. So having all of Spain vote will probably result in an even more major majority for unionism - I guess. If you got to vote over whether one of your top moneymaking regions gave you money or gave you no money what would you say? I know it isn't that simple but we all know how campaigners on either side of any issue can make things be - it can be simple, too simple, or not even related to the issue at hand (see Australia right now ).
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Paul23 wrote:
The problem is that spain will pay the price as well, so why not let the full country vote?
I'm not an expert on the Spanish economy so am weary of answering this, but from what I know Catalonia know they will have some form of price to pay and so you may be right there (in your other post) - apparently the unionists outnumber the nationalists 60/40 irl but if you were going to vote no and some police started brutally attacking anybody who voted no matter who for you wouldn't make the effort just to vote in an illegal poll just to vote for it to not mean anything
But all of Spain voting isn't the right path either. Think of, using the UKIP agenda, how the EU had to keep Britain because Britain put so much into the EU's economy but didn't take as much. Despite if that is true or not, that sounds great for the EU, so they'd vote Britain in! But Britain, as we saw, voted themselves out.
Catalonia make Spain a lot of money (on our news it said same GDP as Portugal!) so money isn't the issue for them having independence in that they couldn't sustain a country. Spain need them for their money as well as other reasons - not losing the Basque Country to the same situation among them I guess. So having all of Spain vote will probably result in an even more major majority for unionism - I guess. If you got to vote over whether one of your top moneymaking regions gave you money or gave you no money what would you say? I know it isn't that simple but we all know how campaigners on either side of any issue can make things be - it can be simple, too simple, or not even related to the issue at hand (see Australia right now ).
That's what I'm talking about. The vote doesn't really count, but apparently the catalonian (I call it government) told everyone that they will leave, if they vote independence...without any rights to do so.
The police in spain then was sent to end this, because the police in catalonia refused to do so. And then it's basically pretty unclear. It's a mix of police violence and attacks by voters. The police violence was unnecessary, but on the other hand, you should do, what the police tells you and not throw stones at them.(or molotovs, but that's germany and france)
The police used rubber ammonition. Something I wanted the police to use in Hamburg this year. I think it's the right thing, if stuff gets waaaay outta hand, but I don't think they should've used it in spain.
The problem with that: "so money isn't the issue for them having independence in that they couldn't sustain a country"
is that it will become a problem. Companies will move away. Catalonia was lucky that they got all the companies in the first place, but when they are out of the EU, they will probably leave, leaving catalonia to crumble within months.
![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg){kind=small}
