ryant wrote:
Klopp has been rather suspect in the transfer market anyway, (I'm talking about the balance of the team and sticking by sub-par defenders/goalkeepers) and its culminated in the loss of a very winnable final here.
I actually think Klopp's transfer record is rather good, one of the best in the EPL.
Grujic, whilst yet to break through, is highly talented and at 5mil can still become either a high level CM or be sold for reasonable return.
Sadio Mane, exceptional
Joel Matip, for a free transfer it's been solid
Wijnaldum, bit over-priced but he's impressed me working more centrally and is a useful squad player especially for EPL and domestic cup games.
Salah, obvious success
Solanke, good free transfer
Robertson, top notch buy and he's only going to get better
Oxlade-Chamberlain, brilliant pick-up with a bright future
van Dijk, still overpriced but he's getting better and can be a key player
Karius is suspect, but only got under 5mil and could still have a future if loaned away for a year or two
Klavan hasn't been great but again wasn't expensive
That's a pretty good transfer record and his sales have been smart as well. Good money for Ibe, Allen, Smith, Benteke, Leiva, Stewart, Sakho and Coutinho.
The problem has been a relative lack of investment in their weak areas. But van Dijk has started that fix, and a focus this off-season at CB, CM and GK and Liverpool are very very close to big trophy wins.
Klopp was looking for new Goalie until Liverpool reached the Final. It was assumed that since Pool reached UCL Final, Karius would be kept as #1 GK for Merseysides next sesaon. But since these two mistakes surely Klopp would be looking for alternatives. His primary oprion was Alisson Becker, but Roma would lock him from going anywhere. Mino Raiola is looking to get Gianluigi Donaruma from Anfield (Milan may be expelled from UEFA competitions), but he's inconsistent. Jan Oblak costs too much and don't think he'd leave Atletico now that they've won Europa League (major boost for Simeone and the team).
TMM suggests Jack Butland from Stoke - what? Here's a compairsion between Butland, Karius, the two other England World Cup goalies (Nick Pope from Burnley and Jordan Pickford from Everton), the two main goalies from the other two relagated teams (Lukasz Fabianski from Swansea and Ben Foster from West Bromwich Albion) as well as Alisson and Donaruma.
Spoiler
GK
Team
GP
GC
CS
GCPM
CSPM
Loris Karius
Liverpool
19
14
10
0,74
0,53
Jack Butland
Stoke City
35
61
6
1,74
0,17
Nick Pope
Burnley
35
36
11
1,03
0,31
Jordan Pickford
Everton
38
58
10
1,53
0,26
Lukasz Fabianski
Swansea
38
56
9
1,47
0,24
Ben Foster
West Bromwich Albion
37
55
10
1,49
0,27
Alisson Becker
Roma
37
28
17
0,76
0,46
Gianluigi Donaruma
Milan
38
42
12
1,11
0,32
Legend: GK - goalkeeper; GP - Games Played; GC - Goals Conceded; CS - Clean Sheets; GCPM - Goals Conceded Per Game; CSPM - Clean Sheets Per Game
Butland has conceded more goals from any of the other and has less clean sheets. You may say "But Stoke's defense was s*it". Well, while Stoke are no Man City, Mark Hughes (and Paul Lambert) is not Pep Guardiola and Butland is no Ederson, the goalkeeper is equal to blame for the conceded goals. And who did he blame for Stoke getting relagated - the transfer policy and not himself. His "blame someone else for your misfortunes" mentality would bring him no favors in the transfer market and he'd be lucky to find place even at a team at the level of Watford or Crystal Palace. He's no better than even Joe Hart and IDK why he's linked with Arsenal and Liverpool
ryant wrote:
Klopp has been rather suspect in the transfer market anyway, (I'm talking about the balance of the team and sticking by sub-par defenders/goalkeepers) and its culminated in the loss of a very winnable final here.
I actually think Klopp's transfer record is rather good, one of the best in the EPL.
Grujic, whilst yet to break through, is highly talented and at 5mil can still become either a high level CM or be sold for reasonable return.
Sadio Mane, exceptional
Joel Matip, for a free transfer it's been solid
Wijnaldum, bit over-priced but he's impressed me working more centrally and is a useful squad player especially for EPL and domestic cup games.
Salah, obvious success
Solanke, good free transfer
Robertson, top notch buy and he's only going to get better
Oxlade-Chamberlain, brilliant pick-up with a bright future
van Dijk, still overpriced but he's getting better and can be a key player
Karius is suspect, but only got under 5mil and could still have a future if loaned away for a year or two
Klavan hasn't been great but again wasn't expensive
That's a pretty good transfer record and his sales have been smart as well. Good money for Ibe, Allen, Smith, Benteke, Leiva, Stewart, Sakho and Coutinho.
The problem has been a relative lack of investment in their weak areas. But van Dijk has started that fix, and a focus this off-season at CB, CM and GK and Liverpool are very very close to big trophy wins.
Your last point was the one I was trying to make out, I'm not disputing Klopp's ability to build the attacking side of Liverpool, but their defensive frailties have been known for a while now, and little has been done to rectify it - apart from grossly overpaying for a decent but not spectacular Van Dijk.
AbhishekLFC wrote:
Well I am a Liverpool supporter and I was surprised by the mistakes Karius. Very much so. Because he has done very well since he became the regular goalkeeper for the team. Is he at the level of a top 6 goalkeeper in the EPL? Probably not YET. But he isn't what you are implying.
Well, you probably didn't watch the first Roma leg because he almost did the exact same thing that he did for Bale's 2nd goal. I mean some of his 'mistakes' bordered on insanity. Its almost surprising that he calls himself a footballer with what he managed to produce in a CL final no less. He's found his level and its certainly not good enough for a team that has supposed ambitions for winning trophies. Though bear in mind that since he's a Klopp signing he won't leave since Klopp wont want to admit failure.
John St Ledger in Team Bunzl-Centrica and Team U25
I have watched every single minute of every champions league game this season. Yes, he might have made mistakes, but he has been quite good in general since he started playing regularly. I've already mentioned that he isn't the finished product, and not close to the other goalies in EPL's top 6. So yes, that is a problem position. And I'm sure someone will be brought in this time. And Klopp has already benched him before at the start of this season, so no reason he won't do it again if he feels the need to do it. Also, I don't understand your point about van Dijk who was rated among the top 5 defenders in the EPL and the UCL, stats-wise, despite playing half the season with Southampton!
Jack Butland would not be an upgrade. Nick Pope would probably be better but he's just had one good season so far so it's too early to tell. Remember Karius was voted second best GK behind Neuer in the Bundesliga when he was signed. Also remember, de gea was nearly sold by SAF before he started playing brilliantly. 24/25 is far away from the peak years of a goalkeeper, so he has a lot of time to become better. He would probably do well to be understudy to a better goalie for the next couple of seasons at Liverpool.
I think Karius actually needs some sports psychologist meetings or something similar as he doesn't seem a bad keeper most of the time, it's only in the big games, or the ones that mean something to the club and it's fans that he can't perform.
I'm thinking back to a manchester united/ Liverpool game earlier in the season, or maybe last season I forget which, this final, the roma game, all big occasions where he has let the pressure get to him, but week in week out he isn't having dodgy performances or costing Liverpool points in the league, if he was that would be as much of a talking point as Salleh has been all season, it's only after these big or meaningful games that Karius/ Liverpool's GK situation seems to go back into the spotlight.
Bring on the Europa League tonight to set up the all English Europa League Final to go with the all English Champions League Final. No doubt Arsenal and Chelsea will now both lose seeing as they are the favourites to go through.
With England in the finals of Nations League this summer too, and more or less already qualified for the Euro's next year, it's looking quite good for English football at the moment.
"Ringo is exactly right", Shonak - 8 September 2016
ryant wrote:
grossly overpaying for a decent but not spectacular Van Dijk.
I'm sorry to do this to you but reading this back is hilarious
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant." [ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT] Xero Racing
ryant wrote:
grossly overpaying for a decent but not spectacular Van Dijk.
I'm sorry to do this to you but reading this back is hilarious
Anyone who questions Klopp's transfers should question his understanding of this sport.
Loris Karius
He did enough for the money that were spent on him. You don't really expect to get the best GK in the World for less than 5 million now do you? Except for those errors (who could have been a result of a contusion) in last year's final he was a good GK. Not the greatest in the World but not as bad as some people make him out to be.
Danny Ward, for example, was sold for double the money were used to bring Karius in and he was a third choice at Liverpool and is now second choice at Leicester. So, even with the CL final mistakes, Karius hasn't been exactly a bad transfer.
Elections for the board are next year, hopefully this match will be the nail in the coffin for Bartomeu. That said, Setien also needs to go. But so do 60% of the players, minimum. Busquets, Pique, Alba, Vidal, Suarez ... They need a complete retool and a coach that has the courage to play Puig over Rakitic or Pjanic.
The bones for a great team are still in there. ter Stegen, despite today's desaster, is a Top 3 goalkeeper in the world. Lenglet is a solid central defender. De Jong can become the new focal point in the midfield, I have a lot of faith in him, as well as in Puig's talent. I still think highly of Dembele, if he can just stay fcking healthy. Fati, we'll see.
Get a coach who can find a role for at least two of Griezman, Messi or Coutinho, or break it all up completely. As much as this was horrendous to watch as a Barca fan, I'm almost glad that this wasn't a 2:4 where you could say, well, Bayern is just so good, but we're not that far off. No. We're very, very far off. This won't be fixed with marginal changes.
I'm sorry to say this, but I think Messi is the one holding the team back. He may even need a change in the scenery maybe with new team and even new league with all of those rumours in Italy that Inter were interested in rekindling the rivalry with Cristiano Ronaldo - this time in Serie A.
ivaneurope wrote:
I'm sorry to say this, but I think Messi is the one holding the team back. He may even need a change in the scenery maybe with new team and even new league with all of those rumours in Italy that Inter were interested in rekindling the rivalry with Cristiano Ronaldo - this time in Serie A.
I thought about this a lot and I'm still not sure. I think, on the pitch only, he's still easily good enough to carry this team and he has for long stretches of this season.
The big problem of course is that everything's focussed on him. Build around him and I think he's still one of the three to five best players in the world, the single best on a good day. But this team is so rotten, so void of any overarching identity or on-pitch philosophy, that it's him or nothing. And that doesn't work.
The other problem I think is his influence off the pitch. Obviously, rumours have to be treated carefully, but from what I understand, he, and by extension his clique around Pique and Suarez, simply have too much power over basically everything and it might be too hard to push forward meaningful cultural change in the club and the locker room with him present. That, I obviously can't assess from my desk hundreds of miles away. But I think it's at the core of how this team is going to proceed from here.
It's astonishing that after the Guardiola era ended Barca had 5 head coaches (most likely they'll have 6th) in 8 years and all of this has yielded to just one Champions League trophy in 2015 and haven't been in the finals since. In the meantime their archnemesis in Real Madrid won 4 titles in the span of 5 years.
But I don't think they'll fire Setien, because if they do, what are the alternatives? Xavi is out as he's contracted with his club in Qatar, Ronald Koeman wants to coach the Netherlands in Euro 2021. The only realistic big name that could take over now is Massimiliano Allegri, who doesn't have a job since leaving Juventus in 2019. There were also rumours that Barca was contacting Arsene Wenger of all people.
Oh, and I forgot to mention that the "unwanted" in Barca Philippe Coutinho scored twice in the final minute. Talk about embarrassment.
![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
