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Tirreno - Adriatico 2013
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 10-03-2013 18:55
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Flair wrote:
They would still do exactly the same thing without the meters because thats exactly how they train.
Would you mind elaborating on that ?
Flair wrote:The meters are there because since they are allowed, they are useful to make sure your sticking to the right pace
Yes, so if you take them away there's a risk you don't ride at the right pace and screw up. Which would make racing less robotic. Or they'd do the same, as you wrote above, without the meters, so what's the point of the meters if they're useless ?
Flair wrote:and theres no reason not to have it, but simply taking them away wont change the way they ride.
Read above. |
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| Flair |
Posted on 10-03-2013 19:49
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When they train as a team in the mountain they go up in a big train all day, riding to the power meter. That's how nearly everyone trains, its what the power meters on bikes first got used for.
A mountain train is made up of 4+ guys who ride bikes for a living and spend insane amount of hours riding to a power meter in training. Even if one of those guys drifts of the pace, the rest will correct him. In order for the train to totally mess up all 4+ guys would have to lose track of pacing (and for the guys in the team guy who are linked to the riders with radio and would still be able to access this sort of information not to notice either and radio them to correct it.)
So as I said. Rather then trying to kill a tactic by try to make it harder to do, reward those who ride in the other style. You can still steam a train up the mountains, but if you do break off in front for bit you can pick up bonus seconds.
Tactics and smart racing are still needed even with a good train. Porte won the stage in P-N cos he timed his attack right. Same with Froome yesterday, he timed his attack just right. Its no different to Purito. He used the Sky train until evreyone was hitting red, then he launched when no-one could respond. |
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| Kalach |
Posted on 10-03-2013 20:12
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Flair wrote:
Yeah, I don't really buy the whole "virus all last season" story from Cadel either. BMC should really switch him to being super helper for TJ I think
Evans is still worth of being leader at this TDF. I would not understimate him even though his climbing at Tirreno is maybe worse than average. |
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| issoisso |
Posted on 10-03-2013 20:27
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He's just old. It's always the same, you never hear a rider or team admit they're past their peak. They always "had an injury" or "had a virus" or whatever.
And it's always wonderfully unspecified. It wasn't a specific illness, no, it was "a virus"
The preceding post is ISSO 9001 certified
"I love him, I think he's great. He's transformed the sport in so many ways. Every person in cycling has benefitted from Lance Armstrong, perhaps not financially but in some sense" - Bradley Wiggins on Lance Armstrong
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| CLURPR |
Posted on 10-03-2013 20:39
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Kalach wrote:
Flair wrote:
Yeah, I don't really buy the whole "virus all last season" story from Cadel either. BMC should really switch him to being super helper for TJ I think
Evans is still worth of being leader at this TDF. I would not understimate him even though his climbing at Tirreno is maybe worse than average.
If they would have ridden for Van Garderen in last years TdF instead of getting him to help Evans then they would have probably gained a higher place in GC because TVG was that much stronger towards the end. |
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 10-03-2013 21:23
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Nice ride by Purito. Mollema up there today. Horner in the front group again. Santambrogio first group. Kwiatkowski slipped a little, still contending. Some aggressive riding by guys like Amador. Good quality stage in my book.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| Kalach |
Posted on 10-03-2013 21:50
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issoisso wrote:
He's just old. It's always the same, you never hear a rider or team admit they're past their peak. They always "had an injury" or "had a virus" or whatever.
And it's always wonderfully unspecified. It wasn't a specific illness, no, it was "a virus"
Horner is 41 years old and look at him, how strong he was at the climbs. I think that Evans has last season where he can show something again. Well that virus was maybe a smart circumbendibus but as Evans said " No stress, sometimes things take a while so a little patience is required. "  |
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Posted on 27-11-2024 20:40
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| FreitasPCM |
Posted on 10-03-2013 22:48
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Kalach wrote:
issoisso wrote:
He's just old. It's always the same, you never hear a rider or team admit they're past their peak. They always "had an injury" or "had a virus" or whatever.
And it's always wonderfully unspecified. It wasn't a specific illness, no, it was "a virus"
Horner is 41 years old and look at him, how strong he was at the climbs. I think that Evans has last season where he can show something again. Well that virus was maybe a smart circumbendibus but as Evans said " No stress, sometimes things take a while so a little patience is required. "
Well, but Horner started having better results when he was 38/39... and when he was 34 he reached the Pro-Tour. |
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| Aquarius |
Posted on 10-03-2013 22:53
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Okay, let's get technical. If you don't like the watts and physiology aspect of cycling don't bother reading this message any further.
Flair wrote:
When they train as a team in the mountain they go up in a big train all day, riding to the power meter. That's how nearly everyone trains, its what the power meters on bikes first got used for.
Not quite actually. The intensity of effort in endurance or athletic sports can be separated in seven distinct intensities. The time that can be spent in each of those seven zones is relatively well defined. Those intensities are relative to one's power (or speed if you mean running or swimming), and cycling power can easily be measured since real time power meters have widespread through the peloton.
The very purpose of power meters is to work (during training or races) in the intensity zone you've decided (if you're the one making the pace) or to check which one you're in, if you're following someone else's pace.
The purpose of training is, of course, to improve the time you can sustain each intensity, but there's little to gain there, and mostly to improve your power in each of those intensities.
Just so that people understand the rest of this message :
Intensity 1 (I1) : base endurance, that's only wandering or relaxed rides, it's 30 to 50 % of the max aerobic power of a given rider. It can be sustained six hours or more. Almost only fat is burnt there.
I2 : sustained endurance. Can last 6 hours, more or less. That's the pace inside the peloton for most of flat stages. 50-65 % of max aerobic power.
A mix of fat + glycogen (sugar) is burnt.
I3 : high endurance. The highest in I3 the lowest the fat consumption. 65 to 75 % of max aerobic power. Can last one hour but you can "refill" with food or gel, and a little rest. That's used for climbing mountains (not the last one if you're fighting for a G.C. position or a stage win). No significant lactic acid is produced there, but it can be used as fuel, so a recovery ride should be performed at that intensity.
I4 : threshold zone. 75-80% of MAP. 20 to 60 minutes (20 at 80 %, rather 60 at 75%). Lactic acid is produced. Only glycogen is burnt. That's the zone you're in for a mountain finish if you're fighting for something, or a time-trial.
I5 : max aerobic power. 85 to 100 % of MAP then. Burns a lot of energy. A lot of lactic acid is produced there and it can't be sustained for long : 5 minutes more or less. Pursuit, prologues, last km attacks. Your power at 100 %, relative to your weight is proportional to your VO2 max.
I6 : lactic tolerance. Attacks, long sprints, km event on track. 100 to 180 % of MAP. More or less one minute, glycogen only.
I7 : sprinting. 5 to 8 seconds. Phosphocreatines are burnt and no lactic acid is produced. Up to 600 % of MAP (most commonly around 300 %), but it's not a relevant comparison (do you think Baugé or Hoy care about their MAP ? They don't, just like Contador probably doesn't care much about his pure sprinting ability).
Of course the time you can spend in each of those intensity zones depends of the available energy. The purpose of a tempo is to have opponents ride at an intensity superior to your leader's. Having a constant tempo costs the least energy, whereas doing micro-accelerations to regain positions or follow a tempo from a bit far is more costly in terms of energy.
Another point is that the power to speed ratio says that the least power you use the most efficient you are. If you're riding in your high I3 at 22 km/h but someone attacks (I5 then) at 26 km/h, he'll soon go down to I4 at 23 and will waste truckloads of energy to sustain that speed. It'll be easy to pick him up a little farther, he'll be quite exhausted.
Lastly : those intensities are determined by power (Watts then), but as far as climbing is concerned, the steeper the climb, the most weight matters, which might give an edge to 60 kg riders over 70 kg ones.
Flair wrote:
A mountain train is made up of 4+ guys who ride bikes for a living and spend insane amount of hours riding to a power meter in training. Even if one of those guys drifts of the pace, the rest will correct him.
On what base ? How will they know if it's slightly too high or if it could be slightly higher if they don't have numbers to tell them ?
Answer : riders' sensations would be the only solution, which is very fine with me. Relying one sensations is human, not robotic.
Flair wrote:
In order for the train to totally mess up all 4+ guys would have to lose track of pacing (and for the guys in the team guy who are linked to the riders with radio and would still be able to access this sort of information not to notice either and radio them to correct it.)
To my knowledge and to this day SRM don't have products that can be checked from a remote distance, so DS can't access datas from the car, but that might just be the matter of a couple of months. Assuming it'd already exist, of course having the numbers spoken back into the ear-speaker instead of being displayed on the dashboard is not really different, delays aside. When I mean banning it, I mean just that : banning it, not pretending to ban it.
Flair wrote:
So as I said. Rather then trying to kill a tactic by try to make it harder to do, reward those who ride in the other style. You can still steam a train up the mountains, but if you do break off in front for bit you can pick up bonus seconds.
Tactics and smart racing are still needed even with a good train. Porte won the stage in P-N cos he timed his attack right. Same with Froome yesterday, he timed his attack just right. Its no different to Purito. He used the Sky train until evreyone was hitting red, then he launched when no-one could respond.
Purito, or Contador's advantages on Sky's leaders is that when they're peaking they probably have a better W/kg ratio on short efforts, meaning they could get rid of their opponents in the last hundreds of meters.
That is if they have enough energy left, which is uncertain because Sky's train is taylor-made for their leaders.
What annoys me is the computer-controlled tempo. Not the fact that there's a tempo like there often has been. With a power meter, there's virtually no chance to mess up with a train, or a given tempo. There's no feeling, just push the pedals hard enough to do the whole first climbs in the middle of your leader's I3, the penultimate at the max of your leader's I3, then let domestiques ride as fast as they can in zone 4, which should have their leaders in their low 4, and finally let them manage their intensity in I4 according to the expected time left. In the last km or so, they'll be able to use zone 5 to deal with attacks or increase gaps if needed. That's it, nowadays mountain tactic. It's not more complicated than that.
You want proofs ? Seen Froome when he got attacked ? First reaction wasn't to trust his guts or his brain to know whether he should or could answer, but to check his meter to see if it was worth it.
Same with Porte after Talansky's second or third attack on the Montagne de Lure "can I or can I not attack ? computer say I can, so... let's go".
I find that boring. Would you find it so exciting if it was conducted by another team than one coming from your home country ? 
Only solution to beat a train ? Form another one, but bigger, so that you have more labour power and manage to save as much energy as your opponents while riding faster.
Sorry for the technical bit. I wonder if anyone read it and understood anything of it.
Edited by Aquarius on 10-03-2013 23:00
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 10-03-2013 23:28
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That was a fun read, and really well explains why the train is so effective
But why does being British or supporting Sky mean we find trains exciting? or think they are gods and dont dope?
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 10-03-2013 23:36
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TheManxMissile wrote:
That was a fun read, and really well explains why the train is so effective
But why does being British or supporting Sky mean we find trains exciting? or think they are gods and dont dope?
It doesn't have o be, that's just what has happened.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 11-03-2013 06:35
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Sagan's fanboy column
Sagan says about yesterday, that he was dropped from the pack for a while at Lanciano and he had to chase the pack on downhill,which costed him lot of energy.
Then after Sky set the brutal pace, he was done and rather was saving something for today. He see today as very hard day also, but at least his cough is much better according to his words.
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| Avin Wargunnson |
Posted on 11-03-2013 06:39
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Also Kreuziger feeling positive about yesterday, he finally found the form this year. He was very active yesterday, helping Contador and attacking alone, he sits at 9th in GC.
He says today's stage is maybe the hardest from whole race, with up and down whole day and one wall after another. This should suit him and i can feel from his words, that Saxo will try to tear the things apart before the TT.
This will be hard day for Sky to control for sure,i think Contador will go crazy (and i hope he will). 
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| Ian Butler |
Posted on 11-03-2013 09:43
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Avin Wargunnson wrote:
Sagan's fanboy column
Sagan says about yesterday, that he was dropped from the pack for a while at Lanciano and he had to chase the pack on downhill,which costed him lot of energy.
Then after Sky set the brutal pace, he was done and rather was s aving something for today. He see today as very hard day also, but at least his cough is much better according to his words.
He really parked on the last climb, though As soon as he dropped, his pace dropped to a more human speed  |
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| Farmer Sam |
Posted on 11-03-2013 11:00
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There's a 16 man breakaway up the road, with some super strong riders in it
Nocentini (AG2R)
Montaguti (AG2R)
Dumoulin (AG2R)
Voss (Netapp)
Cunego (Lampre)
Boom (Blanco)
Martinez (Euskaltel)
Vicioso (Katusha)
Intxausti (Movistar)
Visconti (Movistar)
Impey (Orica)
O'Grady (Orica)
Cancellara (Radioshack)
Sprick (Argos)
Selvaggi (Vacansoleil)
Finetto (Cannondale) |
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| ianrussell |
Posted on 11-03-2013 11:03
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16 away on stage 6 reportedly:
Nocentini, Montaguti, Boom, Martinez, Vicioso, Cunego, Intxausti, Visconti, Impey, O'Grady, Cancellara, Dumoulin, Sprick, Voss, Selvaggi and Finetto
Was going to say it will likely stick given the quality and the fact it will suit Sky but possibly not as Nocentini is only at +3.05 on GC...
Edited by ianrussell on 11-03-2013 11:55
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| Flair |
Posted on 11-03-2013 11:13
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That is one hell of group. And alot of AG2R too.
@Atlantis: I can't be bothered to argue with you. Personally, I believe professional cyclists are quite capable of riding just under thier limits. What they dont know is how far beyond them they can push on any one day, and a meter can't tell you that either.
But sure, yeah. Most cyclists are morons, team sky is only good cos of power meters and banning them will totally destroy team sky and they wont ever win anything again because we all know that the only way anyone british can win anything on a bike is by using sneaky meters and has nothing to do with riding ability or buying all the best riders.
See, you find getting the best riders in one team to pull a train boring. I find taking loads of drugs so you can sprint up mountains boring. Its a personal choice I guess. |
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 11-03-2013 11:15
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Flair wrote:
See, you find getting the best riders in one team to pull a train boring. I find taking loads of drugs so you can sprint up mountains boring. Its a personal choice I guess.
Except with Sky thats the same thing...
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| Flair |
Posted on 11-03-2013 11:17
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Domestique
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TheManxMissile wrote:
Flair wrote:
See, you find getting the best riders in one team to pull a train boring. I find taking loads of drugs so you can sprint up mountains boring. Its a personal choice I guess.
Except with Sky thats the same thing...
Sky doping thread. I've gone over it before there where its not off topic. |
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| Farmer Sam |
Posted on 11-03-2013 11:20
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Andy Schleck abandons. Shocked faces all round. |
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
