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New OVL Calculation for 2025 season
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| ManGame-Admin |
Posted on 13-09-2024 11:39
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Directeur Sportif
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It`s not yet possible to share all ideas for the OVL change including examples. But I wanted to announce this rather early that changes are planned for the 2025 season.
So what to expect:
- The formulas for the OVL became more and more complex lately with the attempt to "fix" lots of special riders, e.g. hybrids at one point, than mid 70s main stat overperformers (yes, Cavagna, you!) and many more. The formulas suddenly changed from one liners to 20 liners in excel and were more and more difficult to slightly edit afterwards. This also resulted in some weirdness when training special combos etc. In worst case you could even find loopholes that resulted in lower OVL when training, something that never should happen.
-> long story short, the aim is to get rid of all those extra lines and going back to a short one liner only, valueing the stats differently and make sure that any training will go with an OVL raise now.
- Also any OVL jumps due to a special allrounder combination, e.g. Vansevenant, Schmid, Hirschi, van der Poel, Evenepoel, Pidcock etc., which resulted often in higher OVL than highest main stat! This will be cut as well, so that the OVL is as said above just calculated on a stat value base.
What to expect. Well ideally, the formulas remain rather similar OVL wise in the end. Obviously with cutting of lots of IFs and other formulas, you just can`t keep it all equal.
While also valueing some rider types a bit more than others, that are more overpowered in the game at the moment, e.g. TT combos.
So as expected some riders gain a bit in OVL, others lose a bit. Same as happened before whenever we did an OVL change.
You can probably guess, which riders might gain and which lose by the "examples" above.
With the OVL change, something that changes or better improves as well is the performance stuff for renewals. There will and always will be riders that just perform better with similar OVL than other riders. Not only because of better planning or more luck in races or more luck in clashes. But also because the actual PCM version just rates Rider A more than Rider B while the stats look rather similar.
So the already added performance ratio for renewals will also be improved to go from less OVL to wage to a bigger mix between OVL/performance to wage. Performance was always included but aim is to higher the value here and lower the OVL impact.
It`s still worked on, so finding the best solution is hopefully just a matter of time.
Likely this can also combine 1-2 new stat gain edits to make them go towards the way the new PCM versions are as third change.
Whenever the time is, hopefully rather sooner than later, I can provide a DB version with the new OVL as well. Or at least some beta version of it.
Please don`t immediately fall into shock then when comparing the old and new OVL and you might be hit by a gain. Maybe other riders gained equally, so the rider type is still doing similar in the end. Plus some riders were likely hit more than others with the actual OVL, so the gap seems bigger while it isn`t on second view.
So for now feel free to discuss those changes/ideas without having exact data yet.  |
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| Eden95 |
Posted on 13-09-2024 11:55
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Grand Tour Specialist
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This probably would have been a good thing to have mentioned at least pre-transfers (even without all of the finer details). All for changes like this and agree it's needed, but if I’d know this it’d have definitely changed my training plans.
Indosat - ANZ HQ
"This Schleck sandwich is going to cause serious indigestion for Evans" - Phil Liggett |
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| Ezeefreak |
Posted on 13-09-2024 11:59
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Domestique
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Eden95 wrote:
This probably would have been a good thing to have mentioned at least pre-transfers (even without all of the finer details). All for changes like this and agree it's needed, but if I’d know this it’d have definitely changed my training plans.
As i read this, this are changes for the next season > So it is VERY MUCH a LOT before transfers 
So thanks for sharing this all already with us so we can all prepare a LONG TIME before it actually happens.
I think its a necessary and nice change! Some irders were just really OP compared to their OVL. And of course the one you mentioned were also kinda weird having high OVL's higher than their main stas .
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| Luis Leon Sanchez |
Posted on 13-09-2024 12:01
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Team Leader
Posts: 5533
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Hard to announce something like this during transfers without the details though. Interesting to see changes and sounds like they're at least somewhat needed. Wages already being more heavily based on performance was a good first step, even if it hurts some of my riders 
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 03-12-2024 18:12
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| Eden95 |
Posted on 13-09-2024 12:13
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4505
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Ezeefreak wrote:
Eden95 wrote:
This probably would have been a good thing to have mentioned at least pre-transfers (even without all of the finer details). All for changes like this and agree it's needed, but if I’d know this it’d have definitely changed my training plans.
As i read this, this are changes for the next season > So it is VERY MUCH a LOT before transfers
So thanks for sharing this all already with us so we can all prepare a LONG TIME before it actually happens.
I think its a necessary and nice change! Some irders were just really OP compared to their OVL. And of course the one you mentioned were also kinda weird having high OVL's higher than their main stas .
Well, with planning ahead for future seasons this knowledge would have affected my transfers this season and probably would have for some others too at the very least is all that I was saying - but you do you.
Looking forward to the heavier weight performance will play on wages during renewals also 
Indosat - ANZ HQ
"This Schleck sandwich is going to cause serious indigestion for Evans" - Phil Liggett |
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| jaxika |
Posted on 13-09-2024 12:16
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3149
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If we move to a newer PCM, how the MM stat will be implemented? |
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| roturn |
Posted on 13-09-2024 12:22
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Team Manager
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I agree, that those changes always impact managers, that plan a lot more into the future. And yes, IF I had mentioned it before transfers, it might have impacted some of the changes.
That said, this would have been the case no matter what or when I had announced it. If I had announced it in 6 months, still some would have considered it a change to plans from 1 or 2 years ago.
At one point it must be mentioned and usually I tend to mention it a lot later only when everything is fully done but as this might change quite a bit, I considered mentioning it as early as possible after one offseason and before the next, when it changes.
Regarding your case, well it`s not that he goes suddenly up 1-2 OVL, I promise.
And regarding his renewals, you will be shocked anyway. No matter if new or old ovl and no matter if same or different performance addition.
In the end I might already be able to mention the following:
The big picture, by not looking at one single rider and comparing 3-4 riders with old OVL but for the whole picture, the new OVL seems to be an improvement already while it in especially deletes all the potential loop holes as well, that were worst case. |
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| roturn |
Posted on 13-09-2024 12:22
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Team Manager
Posts: 22246
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jaxika wrote:
If we move to a newer PCM, how the MM stat will be implemented?
Something as big as this, needs more testing obviously. Can`t tell you yet if this is potentially happening next season or not. |
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| whitejersey |
Posted on 13-09-2024 12:27
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Classics Specialist
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Happy that this change happens, a shame it happens after I sold Turgis and as Meurisse is declining
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| roturn |
Posted on 13-09-2024 12:34
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Team Manager
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I can already say, that on the first excel site of the top 40 most impacted riders to a higher OVL, 32 are Free Agents, not good enough to have a contract.
And those 8 riders under contract might not even realize it post renewals.
On the opposite top 40 riders with a reduced OVL see 20 signed riders and I`d say quite a few, that are having nice stats, even in the red main stat zone.
And yes, one got named already in this thread.
And in average each team goes up by 0.26 OVL, counting all riders signed per team. Obviously some teams more impacted than others. |
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 13-09-2024 12:45
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Tour de France Champion
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Think this makes sense. It was clear some types of riders were more valuable than others OVL wise. i remember circumstances where going from 74/75 to 75/75 suddenly made someone a hybrid and shot their OVL up a ton, which shouldn't happen. Glad these improvements are being made and tested. And while it's always nice to see earlier, this is close to the earliest we've ever gotten news of such a change, and I'm grateful for it.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| hillis91 |
Posted on 13-09-2024 12:54
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Team Leader
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Very glad to read this!
I just wish this part was allready here:
"So the already added performance ratio for renewals will also be improved to go from less OVL to wage to a bigger mix between OVL/performance to wage. Performance was always included but aim is to higher the value here and lower the OVL impact."
As i got kicked in the nuts by my now ex golden boy, Eiking. He performed way below his ability and then demanded PT point scorer money.
Regarding the timeline, this was very early IMO. Kudos on that.
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| quadsas |
Posted on 13-09-2024 14:09
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2518
Joined: 18-01-2013
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Even more performance bonus? Boy renewing sprinters is gonna be even harder.
Also, I hope these changes benefit me and hurt the opponents.
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 13-09-2024 15:58
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World Champion
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As I’m sure the MG-Admin team are aware I’ve been a fan of this for a while  For better or worse when it came to my riders - similar to the performance bonus I suggested which hit me hard this year Full trust in you guys to get it right, and a thanks for the heads up going into the season
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| knockout |
Posted on 13-09-2024 18:07
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7737
Joined: 21-12-2010
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Ezeefreak wrote:
As i read this, this are changes for the next season > So it is VERY MUCH a LOT before transfers
So thanks for sharing this all already with us so we can all prepare a LONG TIME before it actually happens.
I think its a necessary and nice change! Some irders were just really OP compared to their OVL. And of course the one you mentioned were also kinda weird having high OVL's higher than their main stas .
You realize that some managers plan ahead multiple years? Like i wrote down my first plan in 2022 for how to use my cap space, loan cap and excess budget for the seasons 2025 and 2026. Of course, some things will change and i cant know whether the names for potential targets are available or will still be in the wage ranges id want etc but thats the scope some of us consider before making certain moves.
Id like to have major changes known before the previous transfer period is ahead of us. Because while now is a lot of time to talk about this as game designers and make sure that we can catch obvious flaws, there is nothing we can still change as managers before the end of the season. i appreciate that this change isnt hurried just before its too late but prepared with lots of time to get this right but ill also say that the ideal time to announce this was four weeks ago.
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters! |
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| knockout |
Posted on 13-09-2024 18:11
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7737
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First quick thoughts on this:
- This feels like it was always going to come at some point
- I think simplifying the OVR formula is a good idea. Ive long been of the opinion that id rather see one simple formula that everyone understands is staying for the longterm (unless we have huge game changes like a new stat (med mountain) or a stat not working at all (res in whichever game version that was) than trying to create an overly accurate one that changes semi randomly every couple of years once you have adjusted your team to the flaws of the formula
- Ideally the OVR change happens the same year we switch games so we dont need another new formula once we introduce medium mountain to the game
- Further changing the renewals towards performance factor sounds alright.
- It feels like underperformances didnt matter as much as overperformances in renewals last year. Might have been my impression only but if overperformances raise demands further, id also like to see underperformances matter a bit more (could be just me misinterpreting stuff)
- I felt like a couple of my riders demanded more than min wage simply because they raced more (thus collecting more finishing points than other team's min wage riders -> possibly leading to them wrongly being classified as overperforming). If the scoring has more impact on demands, id like that to be looked into (also could just be me being unlucky or misinterpreting stuff)
- The last possible moment to present the new OVR has to be when the stat gains PMs are sent out.
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters! |
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 13-09-2024 22:51
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
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It's got my thumbs up!
Simplification of OVL sounds great to me, and even more balance of performance/results to Wages is of course something i'm in favour of. OVL drives RD which limits the best riders from dominating every event, whilst Results drive Wage which limits teams stacking all the best riders.
And yes, sometimes we just have to accept some oddness will crop up in OVL or Wages. It happens. But the fun in this game is in the interaction and rp, not in spending hours and days on the minutiae of 1pt stat changes to min/max the system.
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| Ulrich Ulriksen |
Posted on 13-09-2024 23:12
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 3269
Joined: 02-11-2010
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knockout wrote:
- This feels like it was always going to come at some point
I think this is the counter to your prior post. The issues with the OVR formulas have been pretty clear for a while so I would think most managers had (or should have had) in the back of their minds something is coming.
Definitely supportive of this generally.
I did some analysis on the medium mountain stat which I haven't got around to posting but maybe will this weekend. The short story is that the simple formula of MM = (HI + MT)/2 seems to work, using the PCM daily Db as a test case. So I think the working assumption for when we move to a new version should be that any weight given to MT and HI should be averaged to derive MM and then reallocated.
Not sure exactly how the OVR formulas work but I think something like the below will work regardless. Lets say in a given calculation Hill has a weight of 0.3 and Mt has a weight of 0.1. Then MM should be .2 ((.1 + .3)/2). But to avoid increasing the total weight above 0.4 you would then reallocate:
New HI = .3/.6 x .4 = .2
New MM = .2/.6 x .4 = .133
New MT = .1/.6 x .4 = .067
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| redordead |
Posted on 16-09-2024 07:32
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4887
Joined: 18-10-2017
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Hopefully the new OVL doesn't hit me too hard when it comes to renewals
Great work being done behind the scenes
"I am a cyclist, I may not be the best, but that is what I strive to be. I may never get there, but I will never quit trying." - Tadej Pogačar
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| Blasing |
Posted on 16-09-2024 10:26
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 279
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I am all in for a new OVL system, as the current one is pretty flawed. My lvl 1 rider Thibau Nys only has 69 racedays for PCT because he is 73,08 overall, despite only having 2 single stat being slightly higher than his ovl:
| Flat | Mountain | Hill | TT | Stamina | Resistance | Recovery | Cobbles | Sprint | Acceleration | Fighter | Downhill | Prologue | | 70 | 69 | 73 | 67 | 71 | 74 | 68 | 62 | 69 | 72 | 68 | 75 | 70 |
Manager of JEWA TIROL Cycling Team
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