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Tour de France 2023
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| SotD |
Posted on 18-07-2023 18:16
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World Champion
Posts: 12187
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quadsas wrote:
SotD wrote:
What is your point actually? Vingegaard is obviously a better rider/TT’er than Bjerg. They are not even on the same planet…
Bjerg won 3 U23 TTT Championships mainly because his worst rivals turned professional while he kept riding U23. He was never the best timetriallist in even that age-comparison.
My point is literally in the initial post. That this supposed greatest timetrialist of all time (according to today) couldnt beat Bjerg in an uphill timetrial just a few months ago
So the point is basically to underline your lack of knowledge about timing your efforts?
Jonas Vingegaard was not on 100% during the Dauphine. He also had limited reasons to go flat out, as his win was not exactly jeopardized at any point.
Last season Vingegaard was also significantly faster than Pogacar in the final timetrial, but he didn't have any incitament to win the stage as it was his teammate who was in the hot seat, while he already had won the race unless he was to lose 3 minutes. So he rode controlled for most of the race, yet still shattering his opponents, only to then sit up entirely in the end.
Today Vingegaard won because he was the strongest, most risk-taking and because Pogacar didn't climb up to his normal level. He did the climb not only slower than a full-throttle Ciccone, but also slower than his teammate Adam Yates. Pogacar on normal level would have cut something like 20-30 seconds off the gap.
Still a massive performance by Vingegaard, but looking at how he performed last year I really don't get why people are surprised that he beat Pogacar by ~50-60 seconds. The rest is on Pogacar not riding to perfection.
Earlier this season, when Vingegaard had no reasons to be in shape, he destroyed Rohan Dennis on an 18km Rohan Dennis parcours.
Already in 2021, before he became even remotely close to his current level, he showed that he was among the very best Timetriallists in the world, being beaten only by Roglic and McNulty - but beating the upcoming World Champion Foss in Basque Country, while taking two consequtive 3rd places in the Tour de France, easily beating both Pogacar and Bjerg in the 3rd week timetrial, on a parcours that was not exactly in his favour. Pan-cake flat. In the start of the race he also blew van Aert and Bjerg behind, despite him not being the leader of the team. He was actually also better than Roglic there.
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| quadsas |
Posted on 18-07-2023 18:23
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2518
Joined: 18-01-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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SotD wrote:
quadsas wrote:
SotD wrote:
What is your point actually? Vingegaard is obviously a better rider/TT’er than Bjerg. They are not even on the same planet…
Bjerg won 3 U23 TTT Championships mainly because his worst rivals turned professional while he kept riding U23. He was never the best timetriallist in even that age-comparison.
My point is literally in the initial post. That this supposed greatest timetrialist of all time (according to today) couldnt beat Bjerg in an uphill timetrial just a few months ago
So the point is basically to underline your lack of knowledge about timing your efforts?
Jonas Vingegaard was not on 100% during the Dauphine. He also had limited reasons to go flat out, as his win was not exactly jeopardized at any point.
Last season Vingegaard was also significantly faster than Pogacar in the final timetrial, but he didn't have any incitament to win the stage as it was his teammate who was in the hot seat, while he already had won the race unless he was to lose 3 minutes. So he rode controlled for most of the race, yet still shattering his opponents, only to then sit up entirely in the end.
Today Vingegaard won because he was the strongest, most risk-taking and because Pogacar didn't climb up to his normal level. He did the climb not only slower than a full-throttle Ciccone, but also slower than his teammate Adam Yates. Pogacar on normal level would have cut something like 20-30 seconds off the gap.
Still a massive performance by Vingegaard, but looking at how he performed last year I really don't get why people are surprised that he beat Pogacar by ~50-60 seconds. The rest is on Pogacar not riding to perfection.
Earlier this season, when Vingegaard had no reasons to be in shape, he destroyed Rohan Dennis on an 18km Rohan Dennis parcours.
Already in 2021, before he became even remotely close to his current level, he showed that he was among the very best Timetriallists in the world, being beaten only by Roglic and McNulty - but beating the upcoming World Champion Foss in Basque Country, while taking two consequtive 3rd places in the Tour de France, easily beating both Pogacar and Bjerg in the 3rd week timetrial, on a parcours that was not exactly in his favour. Pan-cake flat. In the start of the race he also blew van Aert and Bjerg behind, despite him not being the leader of the team. He was actually also better than Roglic there.
Holy fuck, noones talking about him beating Pogacar being something mystifying. Look at the god damn numbers. Pogacar put in an absolute disgustingly dominating performance, if Vingegaard wasnt in the race people would be talking about how insane and doped up pogacar is. Jonas made that performance look like it was done by a 12 year old. Thats the problem. Its the sheer impossibility, not that he beat Pogacar lol.
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| quadsas |
Posted on 18-07-2023 18:29
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2518
Joined: 18-01-2013
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Vingegaard himself just admitted that his bike was showing inhuman numbers. It sucks that Jumbo has better doctors, really wish it was more like baseball where you had insane roided up dudes just providing entertainment and not frustration
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| Thor Hushovd |
Posted on 18-07-2023 18:29
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Under 23
Posts: 94
Joined: 07-05-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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Speaking of 12 year olds... |
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| quadsas |
Posted on 18-07-2023 18:37
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2518
Joined: 18-01-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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You mean people who think there are clean world tour cyclists? Lol
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| superider2010 |
Posted on 18-07-2023 18:41
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 979
Joined: 17-06-2010
PCM$: 300.00
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this dude sotd is probably danish
sotd it's a big fan of riis,rasmussen and now vingedoped
danish were spying europeans for americans,great azzholes these danish
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 00:33
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Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 18-07-2023 18:52
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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Ah, it's not a true tour until there's a needlessly nationalistic argument about doping. At least we're not talking about motos anymore.
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| Flair |
Posted on 18-07-2023 19:18
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Domestique
Posts: 402
Joined: 01-08-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Jonas seemed... disgustingly fast through some corners and borderline teleported down that descent.
Jonas was absolutely prepared to die today. |
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| SotD |
Posted on 18-07-2023 19:27
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World Champion
Posts: 12187
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 2980.00
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superider2010 wrote:
this dude sotd is probably danish
sotd it's a big fan of riis,rasmussen and now vingedoped
danish were spying europeans for americans,great azzholes these danish
I am Danish yes. I am actually a pretty neutral viewer, and neither of the aforementioned riders are within my favorite riders. Fun thing though, Pogacar is among my alltime favorite riders, alongside the likes of Beloki, Heras, Dufaux etc.
I have no clue what that Spy-part is about. I’m pretty sure I’m not interested either.
If a sporting result inflicts those level of retardations, one might consider if the internet is too much too handle…
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| Arberg |
Posted on 18-07-2023 20:44
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 265
Joined: 09-04-2018
PCM$: 200.00
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Vingegaard will win the tour for the next several years! Undoubtedly! I think he will break the record for most TDF wins. When when can step 7.15 w/kg up a mountain, everyone else has no chance at all. Even prime Armstrong couldn't perform anywhere near the numbers that Vingegaard did today and on the first mountain stage, and everyone knows he was max doped. |
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| Tamijo |
Posted on 18-07-2023 21:00
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Team Leader
Posts: 7406
Joined: 14-07-2015
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This is a cycling fan base, should be where we meet to celebrate great performances by our beloved riders. So sad to see fans throwing the doping card, if their riders do not win.
A load of professional are paid to do doping control, we do not need wild guesses. Attempting to spoil the fun for those that respect the riders.
Actually I think it should lead to a permanent ban from the site, unless you link to a reliable source providing some sort of evidence.
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| alexkr00 |
Posted on 18-07-2023 21:19
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World Champion
Posts: 13915
Joined: 05-08-2008
PCM$: 300.00
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Banning people for having concerns about monstrous performances given the history of the sport and ignoring the elephant in the room is not the way to go either.
These meltdowns are rather hilarious anyway. I feel it's really hard for a lot Pog fans to cope with this because they thought for sure Pog would turn things around in his favor today and then it ended up like this.
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| Kalach |
Posted on 18-07-2023 22:00
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 880
Joined: 04-08-2012
PCM$: 300.00
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alexkr00 wrote:
Banning people for having concerns about monstrous performances given the history of the sport and ignoring the elephant in the room is not the way to go either.
These meltdowns are rather hilarious anyway. I feel it's really hard for a lot Pog fans to cope with this because they thought for sure Pog would turn things around in his favor today and then it ended up like this.
Yes it is hard. Its simply unbelievable how much difference on that length of the course, Vingegard did. I am just trying to blame it on the fact that Pogacar was firing on all fronts during the spring campaign. But even with this argument in my mind….its hard
Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the mouth.
_____________________________________________
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| cunego59 |
Posted on 18-07-2023 23:14
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Team Manager
Posts: 6508
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We can have discussions about doping, it's natural and perhaps even necessary with the history of the sport, as alex pointed out. If anyone wants to get into a more fundamental discussion about the state of cycling, performances compared to other times etc., another thread might be more appropriate, though.
What I don't want to see are any personal slights against users, calling anyone stupid or idiotic, making generalizations on basis of a nationality or anything of the sorts. That is entirely unnecessary.
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| Thor Hushovd |
Posted on 18-07-2023 23:24
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Under 23
Posts: 94
Joined: 07-05-2007
PCM$: 200.00
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quadsas wrote:
You mean people who think there are clean world tour cyclists? Lol
Vingegaard doesn't even use ketones. He's been dropped multiple times by Pogacar this summer and is slower uphill than Pantani despite better training, equipment, nutrition etc. He has the 2nd highest VO2 max ever recorded by an athlete. At the age of 17! Probably higher now, the guy is a freak of nature.
He had the day of a lifetime and showed more cojones on the bike today than Pogacar ever will. |
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| jandal7 |
Posted on 19-07-2023 00:48
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World Champion
Posts: 11392
Joined: 17-12-2014
PCM$: 1020.00
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I'm going to start making posts with this energy about Lecuisinier and Herklotz in the MG to spice up the GT discussion threads
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT]  Xero Racing
5x  x5
2x  x2
2x  x2 |
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 19-07-2023 03:00
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
Joined: 27-07-2011
PCM$: 10438.70
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Not getting into the doping discussion but goddamn gaining 3 minutes on 3rd place on a 22 km course is absolutely ridiculous in every sense imaginable.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| Supernutz |
Posted on 19-07-2023 03:47
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Stagiare
Posts: 156
Joined: 03-09-2015
PCM$: 200.00
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It's a pity...we HAD a great race going...with two pretty equally strong teams.
Now?
Jumbo isn't going to animate the race like they might have if it was closer.
This was a big win for Jonas, but a loss for the neutral fan. |
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| Arberg |
Posted on 19-07-2023 05:46
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 265
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https://twitter.c...3226997781 |
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| alexkr00 |
Posted on 19-07-2023 07:22
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World Champion
Posts: 13915
Joined: 05-08-2008
PCM$: 300.00
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jandal7 wrote:
I'm going to start making posts with this energy about Lecuisinier and Herklotz in the MG to spice up the GT discussion threads
Come on, cio and knockout, now you have to put them in the same GT 
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
