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Moving to PCM22
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 28-04-2023 08:04
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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Imladrik wrote:
Thanks to everyone for the work. Don't have anything to add to the thing, but a quick suggestion : if anyone of you spots a promotion on PCM 22, please tell us. As a reporter who don't have PCM 22 yet, that'd be a great help.
If you have Steam, you can wishlist the game and you'll get informed of promotions. The last sale was 20 euro's or so, but I'll expect it will go down to 10-15 at the summer sale when PCM 23 launches.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| SotD |
Posted on 28-04-2023 09:06
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World Champion
Posts: 12188
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 2980.00
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I am (as previously) happy to donate a couple of versions to the reporters.
Thanks for the great work done guys!
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| alexkr00 |
Posted on 28-04-2023 10:53
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World Champion
Posts: 13915
Joined: 05-08-2008
PCM$: 300.00
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SotD wrote:
I am (as previously) happy to donate a couple of versions to the reporters.
Same.
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| Ulrich Ulriksen |
Posted on 28-04-2023 23:44
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 3264
Joined: 02-11-2010
PCM$: 300.00
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Oleg raised this in one of the threads. On PCM22 can we go to single leg TT classics?
My testing showed with +/-2 RDC 1 leg in 22 = 2 legs in 20. Making TTs easier to report isn't going to make anyone sad.
Man Game: McCormick Pro Cycling |
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| ivaneurope |
Posted on 29-04-2023 08:49
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 2933
Joined: 09-05-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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I might take the opportunity as it pains me to see every year having shortage of reporters. However the issue for me is the time - most likely the reports will come during the evening in Europe (e.g. 8-9 PM CET)
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| whitejersey |
Posted on 29-04-2023 11:02
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 2905
Joined: 07-08-2011
PCM$: 300.00
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ivaneurope wrote:
I might take the opportunity as it pains me to see every year having shortage of reporters. However the issue for me is the time - most likely the reports will come during the evening in Europe (e.g. 8-9 PM CET)
I mean a lot of reporters post in their timezones so it is not an issue.
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| sammyt93 |
Posted on 15-05-2023 21:23
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Classics Specialist
Posts: 3634
Joined: 03-07-2012
PCM$: 300.00
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PCM22 is currently 60% off until the 22nd May
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| Jakstar22 |
Posted on 16-05-2023 00:39
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Team Leader
Posts: 7297
Joined: 11-04-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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I might be able to help report a couple of races next season. I just don't have PCM 22 yet. I will have to check it out and think about it in terms of time but reporting for the man game has always been something I have wanted to do!
I will keep an eye on PCM 22 and maybe grab it now while its 60% off.
EDIT: Who should I talk to in order to find out about reporting for the MG?
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 24-11-2024 22:20
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Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
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| Ulrich Ulriksen |
Posted on 16-05-2023 03:41
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 3264
Joined: 02-11-2010
PCM$: 300.00
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Jakstar22 wrote:
I might be able to help report a couple of races next season. I just don't have PCM 22 yet. I will have to check it out and think about it in terms of time but reporting for the man game has always been something I have wanted to do!
I will keep an eye on PCM 22 and maybe grab it now while its 60% off.
EDIT: Who should I talk to in order to find out about reporting for the MG?
Happy to help set you up but probably wait for early next year now since this season is almost closed. Although if you want to try a few NCs that is an option.
Man Game: McCormick Pro Cycling |
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| SotD |
Posted on 16-05-2023 06:39
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World Champion
Posts: 12188
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 2980.00
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Is it possible to purchase 2 keys with 60% off? Then distribute it to the reporters when it's clear who will do it?
I'm happy to send some money to whoever can control that distribution and purchase some versions.
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| DarkWolf |
Posted on 16-05-2023 10:47
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1025
Joined: 21-09-2020
PCM$: 700.00
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I already have PCM22 and although my schedule remains hectic I believe I can squeeze some reporting for the next season. It would be a shame for such an awesome game to disappear for lack of reporters. So, I am ready to step up for some reporting starting with the next season.
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| Jakstar22 |
Posted on 16-05-2023 11:14
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Team Leader
Posts: 7297
Joined: 11-04-2012
PCM$: 200.00
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Ulrich Ulriksen wrote:
Jakstar22 wrote:
I might be able to help report a couple of races next season. I just don't have PCM 22 yet. I will have to check it out and think about it in terms of time but reporting for the man game has always been something I have wanted to do!
I will keep an eye on PCM 22 and maybe grab it now while its 60% off.
EDIT: Who should I talk to in order to find out about reporting for the MG?
Happy to help set you up but probably wait for early next year now since this season is almost closed. Although if you want to try a few NCs that is an option.
I’ll look at my schedule with work and stuff and figure out the time I have to do some reporting for NCs and stuff
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| Luis Leon Sanchez |
Posted on 16-05-2023 15:39
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Team Leader
Posts: 5533
Joined: 12-06-2013
PCM$: 500.00
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Will hopefully be able to return somewhat to reporting more frequently at the beginning of next season but may have to upgrade my laptop as I don't know how it'll fare running 22 given it's already battling a bit with 20 
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| Imladrik |
Posted on 23-05-2023 09:04
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Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 810
Joined: 05-10-2021
PCM$: 600.00
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Ollfardh wrote:
Imladrik wrote:
Thanks to everyone for the work. Don't have anything to add to the thing, but a quick suggestion : if anyone of you spots a promotion on PCM 22, please tell us. As a reporter who don't have PCM 22 yet, that'd be a great help.
If you have Steam, you can wishlist the game and you'll get informed of promotions. The last sale was 20 euro's or so, but I'll expect it will go down to 10-15 at the summer sale when PCM 23 launches.
Yes, I know, but as I've a good bunch of games on my wishlist and I didn't read the mails enymore, I unsubscribe from the deals newsletter 
Seems like I'm a bit late for the last promotion, but as Ivan I'd also take the opportunity.
“...the secret of the Great Stories is that they have no secrets. The Great Stories are the ones you have heard and want to hear again. The ones you can enter anywhere and inhabit comfortably."
A. Roy
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| Caspi |
Posted on 24-05-2023 13:30
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 372
Joined: 22-09-2022
PCM$: 10300.00
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cunego59 wrote:
Stamina and resistance: First, it's important to note that both stamina and resistance only come into effect later in the race. This is not determined by length of race or anything (I think at one point or maybe even up to PCM20, stamina only came into effect after the 200km mark, this is no longer the case). Instead, it's about the green bar. How quickly that decreases is, as far as I can tell, determined by the main stats in the terrain that you're currently riding in. The lower the green bar, the more stamina and resistance affect two things:
Stamina now determines how quickly the yellow bar decreases. In that way, it is similar to how resistance worked so far. If two riders have the same stats as each other, but one has a higher stamina value, then that rider will be able to hold steady high-ish efforts - efforts between 65 and 85 - for longer (again, as long as the green bar has taken enough of a hit).
Resistance on the other hand is now responsible for the red bar, so efforts above 85. A rider with higher resistance empties the red bar slower, meaning they can attack longer, and the red bar regenerates quicker, meaning they can attack more often. This is a mechanic that didn't exist in this way before, at least I don't think so.
Anyone knows when this change was introduced - PCM22 or in an earlier version? |
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| cunego59 |
Posted on 24-05-2023 14:18
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Team Manager
Posts: 6508
Joined: 14-09-2008
PCM$: 1090.00
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That is only from PCM22 onwards (if we assume that it's not immediately changed again for 23).
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| Fabianski |
Posted on 08-11-2023 21:51
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4670
Joined: 29-09-2018
PCM$: 185.00
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Didn't really know where to post, but I guess this thread isn't the worst one.
After (almost) two months of racing with the new engine, I'm not convinced at all that it was a good choice.
The one positive point I noticed so far is that TT results in general, and prologues more specifically, are far less random than before, with the daily form limitation. I think this is really good news for MG (riders are performing according to stats), although it should probably mean that TTers (and prologue specialists) OVLs have to be adapted if they now do consistently well.
So far, I'm also rather fine with the breakaway success ratio - it could be less in some races (TDU, for example), it could be more in others - but I think that part is fine.
So far, I'm also mostly fine with the classics; sprinters win flat races, puncheurs the hilly ones, and the strong cobblers dominate the cobbles. There are always some weaker riders doing pretty well, but I think that's all within the range of the acceptable.
However, at least for me, stage races have mostly been a pain to follow so far.
Mountain stages often had big groups ending up on s.t., which just isn't realistic. In the end, I guess all of T-A, Tachira and Catalunya had pretty plausible results, so the final result looks fine. The lack of gaps isn't great, though, but was already mentioned as a potential issue by cio.
Hilly stage races without TTs - I guess there has only been TDU in that category. And it mostly was a race for the sprinters with some basic puncheur skills. Which clearly again is due to big groups finishing together, and the puncheurs apparently being able to create even less gaps than with the previous version. But the sample size here is very, very small.
I guess Hong Kong was mostly OK in terms of final results, although I think the TTers did too well, and the climbers/puncheurs were ignored too much by the AI. But I'm biased here, given that the AI threw away an almost guaranteed GC podium for my team ^^
Paris - Nice confirms the TDU impression that groups are just far too big on hilly stages. Sprinters are difficult to drop, with some even ending up in the Top 15. And - more importantly - TTers are favoured too much, and are as hard to drop as sprinters.
Ukraine pushed that final observation to the extreme. I mean, the hilly stage had some really sizeable gaps last year (20th was almost 3 minutes down) - and I think that was a great race, with the pure TTers not standing the least chance in the GC. This year, 176 riders were within 2'06" of the winner - and we didn't even have the riders you'd expect to be up front making the cut. Instead, the strong TTers got a very special treatment; I guess of the 80+ TTers, only Gonzales Salas and Viennet missed out on the first group - both having at least another 80+ TT teammate in the front group, though. Riders like Lammertink, Paillot or probably even Ganna wouldn't have stood a chance last year; now they finished inside the Top 15. Even worse in that race (biased again, being on the wrong side), teams with one strong TTer got beneficial treatment and mostly had several other riders finishing up front, no matter their puncheur skills, either. Again, huge groups - but not even selected based on skills in this case.
And then there are the sprinter stage races. I can't help but call them a joke, sorry.
In Qatar, looking at the results after stage 5, we have two of the strongest sprinters in the game - Ewan and Coquard - sitting in 16th and 17th. Groenewegen and Ahlstrand probably should've been higher up, too, but for the former two - having wages of 700k - this is just catastrophic.
And Juarez, even worse. The division's fastest sprinter - Groenewegen - didn't score a single Top 10 result in 5 stages, ending up 26th! Not much better for Dainese in 14th, Vesely in 16th or Bonifazio in 17th. There were 10 80+ sprinters present - only 5 of them made the Top 10.
Whereas it's true that last year we had the 4th sprinter bug, the new engine seems to rule out even more of the fastest sprinters. Which is a double punishment for their managers - high wages and few RDs, going to waste.
Well, it's only 2 months of racing, so the sample size is still rather small. But what I've seen so far isn't good in my eyes.
I'd like to know how other managers think about the new engine - and what could be done. I guess some issues might be resolved via route design, other ones via (long-term) DB deflation. But which issues would likely persist, even if we fix all we can on our side?
Personally, I've always opted for going forward - especially with the daily form limitation in PCM22, having a TT-heavy team.
But I'm not sure it was the right decision; I'd currently rather vote for going back. At least for the sprinter stage races, if the behaviour also appears in other races (Baltic Chain, Guadeloup, Ras, ...).
Going ahead to PCM23/24 probably won't be an option for next year already, as I suppose it'd take a good amount of thinking how to include the new medium mountain stat. And cio mentioned at some point that sprints would be even more crowded and potentially even more random, so...
And yeah, I know that I've mostly been treated well by the engine, looking at my results so far - but the behaviour in some races is just unacceptable, and with some managers getting really, really f****d up, I can't even really enjoy my team's success (which probably is my own problem, though...)
How are others' feelings?
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| quadsas |
Posted on 08-11-2023 22:08
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2518
Joined: 18-01-2013
PCM$: 300.00
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Didnt read (of course), but suggesting going back is ridiculous
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| cio93 |
Posted on 08-11-2023 22:47
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World Champion
Posts: 10845
Joined: 29-10-2007
PCM$: 500.00
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Fabianski wrote:
Going ahead to PCM23/24 probably won't be an option for next year already, as I suppose it'd take a good amount of thinking how to include the new medium mountain stat. And cio mentioned at some point that sprints would be even more crowded and potentially even more random, so...
Mostly agreeing with the general sentiment everywhere at first glance, but just to add my 1.5 cents to this point that I can type quickly:
Playing PCM23 extensively, while sprints look more fun due to many leadout trains, just today I noticed WVA being 4 points ahead of any other sprinter participating in ZLM Tour (basically like Juarez with 5 pan flat stages) resulted in him never getting a train despite there being more than a handful of them every stage, and he participated in just a single sprint (which he won though).
Similar things happened with runaway favorites from PCT teams in random .2 and regional .1 races at times, at least in stage races.
Now that Juarez has shown me the extent of the issue, I'll try to pay more attention to situations like these in my own savegames.
I also cautiously suspect that actual leadout strength doesn't really play as much of a role as managers who like to squeeze every single FL or STA point out of their riders would like to see.
Potentially even more destructive to the game considering our points system though is the fact that all these leadout trains start at 18-20km from the finish in a very rigid structure (no alternating turns, many trains already start with only 3 riders so there's no chance for them to effectively "burn" through teammates) means there is no longer a concerted chasing effort from the peloton from that point on, so you basically get a "1 fresh guy vs many tired guys" race between the first leadout rider vs whatever sized break is most likely still ahead.
You can guess yourself how that can go terribly wrong.
There has been a patch intended to fix excessive breakaway wins from hilly classics (which did very little tbh), but flat stages haven't been addressed directly.
As a general rule of thumb in PCM23, whether it's a flat or hilly classic, if the
breakaway is at least 7-8 riders large (which happens in likely a majority of classics), there's at best a coin flip whether the peloton catches it before the finish.
If we move over, I have at multiple times wondered recently whether we would actually have to issue a directive to reporters to restart races when the break gets too large if the MG DB structure doesn't alleviate this problem, which would obviously be disastrous for overall game integrity.
So if we rightfully take issue with stage race sprints being bad while overall classics appear work fine, we're possibly getting into even more trouble moving forward from 22.
Edited by cio93 on 08-11-2023 22:53
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 09-11-2023 11:18
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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Just to throw some sort of thought into the mix, but is it (again) a case that the MG DB is unsuitable for PCM AI in a number of cases?
i.e. I don't expect PCM was designed to handle 10 80+ sprinters in one race, plus another 10 77+, plus associated Leadouts of another 20 75+.
OR I don't expect PCM was designed to handle 15 77+ GC riders in one race, plus variations of inflated single stat climbers and support over 74.
When giving the engine these kinds of inputs, to see overly large groups finishing together on a lumpy stage doesn't seem all that surprising, to see some sprinters just crapping out doesn't seem that surprising.
I'm not saying the DB-AI interaction is entirely the cause, but I'd say it is playing a role. It's part of the cause of issues encountered in the past, and will continue to do so on future editions because we're playing with a very edge case DB.
I'll also say, sprints have always been funky in PCM & in the MG. Just the way sprinting works in real life vs any other part of road racing means the way it's modelled in PCM is again kind of odd and a bit broken to begin with. We're always battling for a "ok i guess that'll do" point and compromising between different elements. Forwards editions, backwards editions, nothing will be perfect we just need to establish what participants will accept as usable, and then adjust the controllable elements (wages, ovl, rd, DB construction) we can.
Going back versions would improve some areas, make others worse. I don't think it's a particularly good idea overall and we should persist with either making what changes we can, or progressing to the next game version.
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
