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Decisiontime! Which PCM version for next season?
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| SotD |
Posted on 11-04-2022 13:50
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World Champion
Posts: 12200
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Hi everyone
It's about time we make a final decision as to which PCM version we want for next season (the future).
I have a clear bias towards a specific version as I think it holds the needed predictability for this game to properly function in the long run. It comes with flaws - like all versions, but the predictability of the numbers in the spreadsheet vs. the actual outcome on the races is neatly tested.
The version I'll suggest using for the future of the game (until a new and better version comes out, that is thoroughly tested in due time) is PCM 2015. But I'm not the decider here.
We have talked about it before, and for some reason we fail to really get closer to a solution. For me PCM '18 and in particular PCM '20 have moved the game away from being fun and enjoyable, simply due to the behavior in AI. The AI isn't and wasn't perfect in PCM 2015 either, but we could manouvre around it as it was mainly supported by actual statcombinations and not an excessive amount of AI deciding what would happen. Riders with low ACC failed to perform compared to similar (or worse) riders with high ACC. This is not perfect by any means, but it's predictable at least.
In a game where all decisions are created in a short period of time between seasons, we need predictability rather than linear progress with new and unseen/unforeseen changes in AI behaviour IMO.
I know some managers will be hurt differently from moving back and forth in version, and I for one certainly haven't developped my riders to function the best possible with PCM 15 - Giannoutsos being the key example. But I think those development plans have always been within a fair margin of "movement in the dark" due to not knowing what different versions does. And this IMO is another reason why a more sealed version is a good investment in the game.
In order to actually make your voice heard I have created a poll, and I hope you will help giving the full picture of interests, so a decision can be created - We are so far into the season, that we need to be making the decisions - and hopefully the decision can help with people who are not particularly fond of the current situation, become more active again.
In any switch there is a workload to be carried, but fortunately moving back will help us in having quite a lot of data available. This is also the reason why moving ahead isn't an option in the poll. There's simply to much work on to few hands currently.
Cheers
SotD
Edited by SotD on 11-04-2022 14:40
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| Ad Bot |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 11-04-2022 13:54
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World Champion
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Why isn’t 2022 an option? It should be there by the start of next season and it looks very promising on the Steam page.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| hillis91 |
Posted on 11-04-2022 14:00
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Team Leader
Posts: 5901
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PCM 20 vote for me, i do not like the idea of going "backwards" in games. That seems counter productive to me.
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 11-04-2022 14:05
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Tour de France Champion
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Ollfardh wrote:
Why isn’t 2022 an option? It should be there by the start of next season and it looks very promising on the Steam page.
I imagine it would be very hard to have that kind of turnaround with DB making and stuff, but if it's an option, I think we should try it. The ability to scale the effects of daily form sounds game changing within this engine.
Edited by baseballlover312 on 11-04-2022 14:07
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| quadsas |
Posted on 11-04-2022 14:06
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2520
Joined: 18-01-2013
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Anyone who votes for anything but PCM20 should probably be permabanned
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| quadsas |
Posted on 11-04-2022 14:07
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2520
Joined: 18-01-2013
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Ollfardh wrote:
Why isn’t 2022 an option? It should be there by the start of next season and it looks very promising on the Steam page.
I would 100% vote for that if people are willing to get the game
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| ember |
Posted on 11-04-2022 14:14
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Team Leader
Posts: 6866
Joined: 27-03-2008
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Are you writing this on behalf of the "MG Administration", or for yourself?
Seeing what has been written in previous discussions about the amount of work, both for the first "new" season, and not to mention for future seasons, it seems like a lot thinking of stages, files, reporters availability, and more. Honestly I don't know much about those behind the scenes, stages and races work, but it does sound like quite a lot 
If this is on behalf of the MG Administration, I'm curious to why moving to PCM22 isn't an option, just like Ollfardh. I see your final paragraph on why it hasn't been listed as an option, but I'm not sure I agree there must be "tons" of data available to decide which game version we should go with. I think I'm correct saying that in all previous seasons, several users have tried their best to get those of us who don't have the game valuable information about the game engine and what rider types might be preferred in the MG universe by the AI.
Assuming workload and behind the scenes work is always easier moving together with the natural game development than moving back to PCM15, PCM18 or whichever version we prefer of the old ones, is also an argument against moving back.
Also, the single feature that you can possibly decide if it's a maximum +2/-2 daily form swing in PCM22, sounds absolutely great for me, now that we've seen how powerful daily form is in the 20 game.
I won't vote until we get to know more about the poll, and also why there's no other options than the 15, 18 and 20 versions of the game. |
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 11-04-2022 14:22
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 9104
Joined: 13-03-2013
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Agree with ember: No reason to cast a vote now. Especially if you're not talking about the game engine fixes possible like the one for PCM20 that have been discussed for months now (and tested). This feels like the worst possible timing for such poll.
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| SotD |
Posted on 11-04-2022 14:28
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World Champion
Posts: 12200
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I'll happily add 2022 aswell, but I don't think it makes sense to include a version that isn't available until after the season is over to be honest.
The poll is added on behalf of the administration, as are the parts about acting and making a fast decision in order to be ready for the upcoming season. The parts about picking PCM 15 is obviously my own 2 cents on the matter. I have had enough of PCM 18-20 tbh. It just doesn't work well enough.
For me personally (need to varify with Roturn), PCM 2022 is a great idea to discuss - but not for the upcoming season.
1) It isn't out yet
2) It hasn't been tested yet
3) I have no idea about the workload such a shift would require
Those 3 combined gives me a feeling that it really isn't a viable option. For the season after - sure could be.
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 11-04-2022 14:34
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Tour de France Champion
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Croatia14 wrote:
Agree with ember: No reason to cast a vote now. Especially if you're not talking about the game engine fixes possible like the one for PCM20 that have been discussed for months now (and tested). This feels like the worst possible timing for such poll.
Just so we are all clear, what fixes are being/have been tested and planned to be used?
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| SotD |
Posted on 11-04-2022 14:41
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World Champion
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I have added a 4th option, albeit I don't really feel like it's an option as it just keeps postponing the decisionmaking which we are already very good at.
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| SotD |
Posted on 11-04-2022 14:43
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World Champion
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TheManxMissile wrote:
Croatia14 wrote:
Agree with ember: No reason to cast a vote now. Especially if you're not talking about the game engine fixes possible like the one for PCM20 that have been discussed for months now (and tested). This feels like the worst possible timing for such poll.
Just so we are all clear, what fixes are being/have been tested and planned to be used?
I don't know anything about that either.
And it might be the worst possible time for such a poll, but if changes are to happen for the upcoming season, then it's now.
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| ivaneurope |
Posted on 11-04-2022 15:08
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Classics Specialist
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Even though I don't have PCM20 (thus I'm not reporter), I would prefer keeping PCM20. Jumping straight to PCM22 without proper testing and research is not IMO a wise choice
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| Croatia14 |
Posted on 11-04-2022 15:18
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Directeur Sportif
Posts: 9104
Joined: 13-03-2013
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TheManxMissile wrote:
Croatia14 wrote:
Agree with ember: No reason to cast a vote now. Especially if you're not talking about the game engine fixes possible like the one for PCM20 that have been discussed for months now (and tested). This feels like the worst possible timing for such poll.
Just so we are all clear, what fixes are being/have been tested and planned to be used?
At least sprinters stage races and how to get rid off the bug that the best placed GC sprinters don't take part in the sprints. But I'd assume that there is more that can be done in the calendar section learning from which races worked this year and which didn't.
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 11-04-2022 15:22
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World Champion
Posts: 14589
Joined: 08-08-2011
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Well, I don't think "always move ahead" is the correct way to describe 2022. I did not make this suggestion just to move ahead, I did it because of some of the new features that are imo very interesting to the MG:
- A more energetic and attacking peloton (remains to be seen of course)
- Stamina and resistance scores have a bigger effect on how effort is exerted during a race. This allows some riders to attack several times or manage their effort at the end of the race better. (yes please!)
- The race-day condition is now closer to the announced provisional condition. To enable comprehensive customisation, you can now adjust 2 parameters: bonus amplitude (from +5 to -5 or complete deactivation) and activation or deactivation of variation. (definitely something that should be discussed)
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 11-04-2022 16:38
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
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Croatia14 wrote:
TheManxMissile wrote:
Croatia14 wrote:
Agree with ember: No reason to cast a vote now. Especially if you're not talking about the game engine fixes possible like the one for PCM20 that have been discussed for months now (and tested). This feels like the worst possible timing for such poll.
Just so we are all clear, what fixes are being/have been tested and planned to be used?
At least sprinters stage races and how to get rid off the bug that the best placed GC sprinters don't take part in the sprints. But I'd assume that there is more that can be done in the calendar section learning from which races worked this year and which didn't.
I didn't know the +stage concept had been tested. If it's working and Sprint stage races are now working properly, added to the obvious (i hope!) further changes to OVL and Wage/RD calculations of sprinters then i'm a lot happier about PCM20 going forwards.
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| SotD |
Posted on 11-04-2022 16:57
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World Champion
Posts: 12200
Joined: 29-11-2006
PCM$: 2980.00
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For me there’s no issue in moving to PCM 2022 if testing shows that it is the way to go. Testing showed that PCM 18 would likely improve on PCM 15, which wasn’t at all the case, and then testing showed that PCM likely would have the same few benefits that PCM 18 had, and eliminate some of the major flaws. It didn’t. On the contrary I think the Man-Game have moved down in quality from each step up in PCM version. We have tested before and when we believe it’s a wise strategy we have went for the upgrade/newer version.
Talking about PCM 2022 as if it will help the Man-Game even before it has been released IMO isn’t helping us one bit. I would suggest moving back to the best version we know of for now, and if PCM 2022 then seems better we Can move to that.
Maybe it was better to keep two seperate threads. One for what we will do here and now. And one for what we aim for in the long run. What is important for us in terms of a new version etc.
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| quadsas |
Posted on 11-04-2022 17:06
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Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2520
Joined: 18-01-2013
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SotD wrote:
For me there’s no issue in moving to PCM 2022 if testing shows that it is the way to go. Testing showed that PCM 18 would likely improve on PCM 15, which wasn’t at all the case, and then testing showed that PCM likely would have the same few benefits that PCM 18 had, and eliminate some of the major flaws. It didn’t. On the contrary I think the Man-Game have moved down in quality from each step up in PCM version. We have tested before and when we believe it’s a wise strategy we have went for the upgrade/newer version.
Talking about PCM 2022 as if it will help the Man-Game even before it has been released IMO isn’t helping us one bit. I would suggest moving back to the best version we know of for now, and if PCM 2022 then seems better we Can move to that.
Maybe it was better to keep two seperate threads. One for what we will do here and now. And one for what we aim for in the long run. What is important for us in terms of a new version etc.
Sure helps a lot more than constantly bitching about good ol PCMs when going back absolutely not even an option and would be beyond idiotic. I mean, sure, you can go back, but I am sure fair few people will also go back to not being MG managers.
If you think PCM20 is a so bad that we should move to other version, then I don't see why we need to test PCM22 extensively and wait a year, surely it can't be worse (according to some), and if the game is mostly the same except we can manipulate daily form, then who cares if it's not even out yet,and I know Daily used to get beta invites, I am sure people can get one.
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| SotD |
Posted on 11-04-2022 17:31
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World Champion
Posts: 12200
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So the fact that the game isn’t out yet and that it may include a lot of work doesn’t bother you?
And the first point is just pathetic. Why do you think we made the poll? If people are against a certain version then we obviously won’t use that. I’m just expressing my perspective. But you are right. There are no point in me bitching about the version. There are other things in life that are more important than being frustrated with being involved in an online game.
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| redordead |
Posted on 11-04-2022 18:13
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Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4910
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TheManxMissile wrote:
I didn't know the +stage concept had been tested. If it's working and Sprint stage races are now working properly, added to the obvious (i hope!) further changes to OVL and Wage/RD calculations of sprinters then i'm a lot happier about PCM20 going forwards.
I tested adding a MO stage to sprint races and found it got rid of the leader bug. I also didn't spot any downsides with that.
With regards to game versions. I personally wasn't a big fan of PCM15, granted I did only have one season on it. I'm more in favor of moving forward than backward. I don't know if PCM22 is automatically better because of the daily form feature. For me questions still arise:
At what level do we set daily form? Does this mechanic effect anything else like leader bonus? Does the game AI have any new differences? Do we need to set MO stages for sprint races in this game also?
The other thing about testing is who will do it? I'm one of only 4 reporters this season that are consistently reporting races. I can't talk for others, but after 100+ reports I'll probably want to take some time off from MG, not doing more testing. Also if someone does do the testing and that person has a very different idea on how the game should behave, then it's likely a portion of people will again be unhappy. So ideally you would more people doing the testing. But if PCM22 does get voted in, then I guess we go with it and whatever happens happens.
I'm not sure what requires more work moving forwards or backwards. But from working on offseason stuff last year, I realized that it takes a lot of work just to prepare for a new season and implement some smaller changes. There isn't a lot of people willing to work on those things. Especially the people who tend to be the loudest, do the least amount of work.
"I am a cyclist, I may not be the best, but that is what I strive to be. I may never get there, but I will never quit trying." - Tadej Pogačar
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