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The European Super League
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| cunego59 |
Posted on 19-04-2021 13:34
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roturn wrote:
The problem isn`t the players only. Obviously those will still earn a lot.
But a club is much bigger than players and it`s already a huge struggle for 100s or even 1000s of employees whenever your club is going from 1st to 2nd division or even down to 3rd. Half of the employees lose their job due to such relegations.
Whenever those kind of clubs even lose more money due to sponsors moving over to the richest clubs, the lower level football is basically dead, no matter how much you buy merch (which by an article I read some years ago, is not even giving the club a lot of money, except you have the selling numbers of a Christiano Ronaldo or Messi jersey).
Even clubs in the 1st division will start to struggle due to sponsors and tv right finances moving over to richer clubs.
They will struggle if they want to keep up their current standard, maybe. But, like, there's still football in Portugal or the Netherlands or Norway or Brazil even without the Billions that the top English or Spanish clubs are getting at the moment. With lots of fans and lots of clubs doing fine. Yes, there would be some sort of transition process for those leagues that lose their top tier. But it's not like the other clubs would just evaporate.
I pretty much agree with everything TMM said in that regard, especially in that the current system is far from sustainable in the first place. And also the part about women's football!
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| roturn |
Posted on 19-04-2021 13:39
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cunego59 wrote:
roturn wrote:
The problem isn`t the players only. Obviously those will still earn a lot.
But a club is much bigger than players and it`s already a huge struggle for 100s or even 1000s of employees whenever your club is going from 1st to 2nd division or even down to 3rd. Half of the employees lose their job due to such relegations.
Whenever those kind of clubs even lose more money due to sponsors moving over to the richest clubs, the lower level football is basically dead, no matter how much you buy merch (which by an article I read some years ago, is not even giving the club a lot of money, except you have the selling numbers of a Christiano Ronaldo or Messi jersey).
Even clubs in the 1st division will start to struggle due to sponsors and tv right finances moving over to richer clubs.
They will struggle if they want to keep up their current standard, maybe. But, like, there's still football in Portugal or the Netherlands or Norway or Brazil even without the Billions that the top English or Spanish clubs are getting at the moment. With lots of fans and lots of clubs doing fine. Yes, there would be some sort of transition process for those leagues that lose their top tier. But it's not like the other clubs would just evaporate.
I pretty much agree with everything TMM said in that regard, especially in that the current system is far from sustainable in the first place. And also the part about women's football!
Yes, they would survive and there would still be football in the end.
But while sport became a business it`s still a sport in the end and the superleague stays for all the factors, that aren`t really in common with the meaning of sport.
As said, it`s a business nowadays but still a corrupt business like we have now is something where the sporty side can play a role here and there as well. e.g. Ajax Champions League run 1-2 years ago?? with clearly a much lower budget than most other teams.
Those sporty sides would be ruined imo. |
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 19-04-2021 13:44
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But a club is much bigger than players and it`s already a huge struggle for 100s or even 1000s of employees whenever your club is going from 1st to 2nd division or even down to 3rd. Half of the employees lose their job due to such relegations.
This is why the current system shouldn't be lauded as perfect, what we have now is deeply dysfunctional and unsustainable (let alone a pandemic).
And an ESL does not help this at all, but i don't think it is as directly damaging as at first glance.
I'd take it a step further with the MLS comparision/contrast. Way back when the NY Cosmos had stars like Pele the USFL looked flash but quickly collapsed. The founding principles of the MLS were built from the ground up on sustainability. It's arguably the most financially secure league in the world.
This allows clubs to invest heavily in their affiliate teams and the US league pyramid is surprisingly wide and stable, and continues to grow as soccer (yes i said it) becomes more and more interesting to a wider generation of young players.
To build this out into Europe i'd point to the Red Bull/City Group model. Bringing various entities together to share resources, knowledge, finances etc can benefit those clubs and communities. A lower overall expensive league with slightly smaller, more local, more development focused clubs has some big upsides.
It's all very much fantasy talk, but "Big clubs making their own league stealing all the money" is not a good argument. Especially when these big clubs don't care what we think.
And i am against an ESL, it's just fun to play devils advocate and try to think about this in a new angle. Plus i always more people to be sharing in my love of the MLS, lower end EPL clubs (Brighton fan!) and support some cool proper local non-league football (where i did a lot of refereeing and know how fun those places are)
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| cunego59 |
Posted on 19-04-2021 13:50
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roturn wrote:
Yes, they would survive and there would still be football in the end.
But while sport became a business it`s still a sport in the end and the superleague stays for all the factors, that aren`t really in common with the meaning of sport.
As said, it`s a business nowadays but still a corrupt business like we have now is something where the sporty side can play a role here and there as well. e.g. Ajax Champions League run 1-2 years ago?? with clearly a much lower budget than most other teams.
Those sporty sides would be ruined imo.
Oh don't get me wrong, the Super League itself is very much against sporting values, no doubt. But the way I see it, that crazy commercialism and corruption is already in the sport, only at the moment it's intertwined with everything else. The Super League, from my point of view, is a means to get the worst offenders out of the national leagues into their own world, which would leave the national leagues maybe a bit less valuable, but overall healthier and more sustainable. Which of course may be a naive way to look at it, I don't know.
And there would still be hierarchies, clubs that do better, clubs that do worse. You could still have underdog stories, only maybe it would be Frankfurt beating the likes of Ajax or Everton instead of Ajax beating Real. Not as exciting, maybe. But the other side of the coin is that there's just a smaller gap between the very top and the rest.
The sporty side, as you put it, would live on outside of the ESL, and maybe be better for it.
This obviously sucks for the more traditional fans of those clubs that go to the ESL, though, as you can see from many early reactions already.
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| df_Trek |
Posted on 19-04-2021 14:19
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ok, but this scenario makes sense from the moment ESL teams won't participate at national leagues. that's not the current idea for it.
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| cunego59 |
Posted on 19-04-2021 14:33
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True, should have clarified that. If the ESL will function as they want it to, then I have nothing positive to say about it whatsoever. I'm just working on the assumption that UEFA and FIFA say, if you do your ESL, you can't compete in our tournaments, and the clubs will be like, alright fine, whatever, do your thing without us 
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| DarkWolf |
Posted on 19-04-2021 16:12
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[url=https://pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=58465&pid=1387539#post_1387539]TheManxMissile wrote:
[/url]
The founding principles of the MLS were built from the ground up on sustainability. It's arguably the most financially secure league in the world.
This allows clubs to invest heavily in their affiliate teams and the US league pyramid is surprisingly wide and stable, and continues to grow as soccer (yes i said it) becomes more and more interesting to a wider generation of young players.
Very, very true. However, the problem with European football, and the Super League and Champions League we are talking about, and the MLS, and US sports in general, is the salary cap. I love this about the US sports, you are limited in salary caps and you cannot possibly buy for cheaps every possible player you deem good for your team. You have to manage your roster properly and manage your current and future state of your franchise. Yes, you can build a very successful franchise as New England Patriots did in the NFL, but everyone else has a fighting chance if they manage their teams with care and patience. And the rich have slim chances of becoming richer in sporting terms. Although a lack of patience can be seen there as well. As we stand at the moment there is no possible way to improve the "smaller" nations around the European football. They are happy with the way things stand now and just want more money.
As it was said here this could benefit football at the lower level. But I doubt it. UEFA and FIFA did nothing to prevent this in the first place. They grew their competition to huge numbers (like the Euro and World Cup) just for that, money. And now they point the fingers to these huge clubs that they want the same? As for young football players, if Super League grows in audience, coverage and revenue there's no stopping in snatching every single shred of talent out of the rest of the clubs outside Super League. |
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| ivaneurope |
Posted on 19-04-2021 16:48
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And UEFA has announced its vision for the Champions League starting from 2023-24 - and it's a load of horsecr@p.
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 19-04-2021 18:40
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DarkWolf wrote:
[url=https://pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=58465&pid=1387539#post_1387539]TheManxMissile wrote:
[/url]
The founding principles of the MLS were built from the ground up on sustainability. It's arguably the most financially secure league in the world.
This allows clubs to invest heavily in their affiliate teams and the US league pyramid is surprisingly wide and stable, and continues to grow as soccer (yes i said it) becomes more and more interesting to a wider generation of young players.
Very, very true. However, the problem with European football, and the Super League and Champions League we are talking about, and the MLS, and US sports in general, is the salary cap.
This is where i was heading, if you are going to start a new competition because you need more money you should build that competition properly. As it is currently the spiralling spending continues and these clubs end up back needing more money in a few years.
Equally if they break away i would love to see the existing leagues taking this as a chance to re-work their models and build a more sustainable future for the sport.
It's hypothetical wishing, but it's more fun that complaining into the void for me.
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 19-04-2021 18:45
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So congratulations to PSG, winners of this year's Champions League after every other semifinalist got disqualified!
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| FreitasPCM |
Posted on 19-04-2021 18:54
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Ollfardh wrote:
So congratulations to PSG, winners of this year's Champions League after every other semifinalist got disqualified!
Call Porto and Dortmund back, make Leipzig and Atalanta play against each other for the final semi-final spot and voila, problem solved.  |
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| tomcat9 |
Posted on 19-04-2021 18:58
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Ollfardh wrote:
So congratulations to PSG, winners of this year's Champions League after every other semifinalist got disqualified!
 When I was in Paris, I bought a winter hat with PSG logo there and sometimes I wear it walking around Saint-Petersburg 
Let's save the history of PCM together!
Just write me a PM if you have something for old PCM Editions (from 2005 to 2014) - databases, stages, shirts etc. and we'll share it.
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| ivaneurope |
Posted on 19-04-2021 19:03
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Ollfardh wrote:
So congratulations to PSG, winners of this year's Champions League after every other semifinalist got disqualified!
Honestly, I'd declare this year's edition null-and-void
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| df_Trek |
Posted on 19-04-2021 19:41
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I read somewhere that 5 teams involved still in European cups risk to be DQ'd immediately.
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| ivaneurope |
Posted on 19-04-2021 20:03
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Alexander Ceferin IMO has FAILED as UEFA president. This European Super League has been in the works in some way, shape or form once the broadcasting boom during the 90's. The presidents before have quelled such attempts, but Ceferin thought that those clubs were bluffing - he was totally wrong. And he calls himself an innovator - he just took ideas that were originally conceived during Michel Platini's presidency. For example the UEFA Nations League existed as an idea since 2013. The idea for 3-tier European Club competitions has been existing at least since 2015.
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| DarkWolf |
Posted on 20-04-2021 08:58
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[url=https://pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=58465&pid=1387539#post_1387539]TheManxMissile wrote:
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It's hypothetical wishing, but it's more fun that complaining into the void for me.
You are absolutely right. I am not sure why I even bothered with their shenanigans. I have a couple of problems that cause me bitterness and disappointment without concerning myself with a sport I lost interest in. For a very short while I found the subject outrageous, but then again I found it to be so for a long time now. It's time for me to move on from football subjects. |
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 20-04-2021 09:53
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DarkWolf wrote:
[url=https://pcmdaily.com/forum/viewthread.php?thread_id=58465&pid=1387539#post_1387539]TheManxMissile wrote:
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It's hypothetical wishing, but it's more fun that complaining into the void for me.
You are absolutely right. I am not sure why I even bothered with their shenanigans. I have a couple of problems that cause me bitterness and disappointment without concerning myself with a sport I lost interest in. For a very short while I found the subject outrageous, but then again I found it to be so for a long time now. It's time for me to move on from football subjects.
As long as FM continues to be such a high quality product it alone can keep me engaged with football!
I know my club, Brighton, are trying to do things properly and ethically and have a really secure fan base. And as mentioned, i love the MLS. Plus Womens Football is still without the stupid egos so is more than enjoyable.
Don't give up on football just yet, there's plenty of good still in the sport!
______
And to emphasise the point i was very happy to see Bruno Fernandes openly speak out against the ESL! Only one player so far but if he can do it i wouldn't be surprised to see some more making statements in the coming days as well.
I'm really hoping someone like Marcus Rashford will say something, as he carries enough real status here in the UK to enact real damage to the concept.
Although to balance that, whilst Leeds wore protest shirts in their pre-game warm up last night, they provided the same to Liverpool and none of them wore them. In fact Klopp was kind of disparaging about them which makes me think Liverpool players won't break ranks.
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| Miguel98 |
Posted on 20-04-2021 10:12
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Milner said in the post-match interview he didnt like it and he didn't hope it happened.
Klopp just seemed really angry overall with everything, so it's hard to tell. |
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 20-04-2021 10:36
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Miguel98 wrote:
Milner said in the post-match interview he didnt like it and he didn't hope it happened.
Klopp just seemed really angry overall with everything, so it's hard to tell.
Yes, totally overlooked Milner! Would have been nicer if it was TAA or Henderson, but i'll take whatever we get at the moment.
Reading Klopps comments i think he's just angrier to have not been asked, not about the actual concept... we'll see... It's similar to Tuchel who was annoyed at not being told but then refused to comment on the issue itself.
I know they have fine lines to walk as contracted employees, but they also have enough in the bank accounts already to take a week's worth of a fine, or a pay off to leave the club.
Silence is saying just as much as words right now. And at the least the club owners are speaking their honest thoughts!
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 20-04-2021 11:00
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On the other hand, a fining a player over saying what pretty much every fan is thinking is another PR nightmare for every team.
It would be nice if Messi or Ronaldo speak up about this. It's very nice Milner and Fernandes did it already, but it needs more.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
