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PCM.daily Stat Discussion
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 29-10-2020 13:40
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Arberg wrote:
Roglic and Pogacar must have the same in mountain. Difference was on time trial, where Roglic had a bad day and Pogacar had very super good day +5.
Roglic and Pogacar must also have the same in hills. We saw in the tour and in Liège–Bastogne–Liège. Roglic also won Vuelta last year and favorite to win the Vuelta again this year.
Not one are better than Roglic, not even Pogacar.
You change your mind like the weather 
On a more serious note let's see how Roglic does over the next big mtn stages and next week and he if he has the same form then 83 mtn but if not and Carapaz can come close to him then maybe 82 mtn.
I wouldn't use LBL as an argument though as Alaphilippe ruined that race with his swerve as he was too fatigued to win and Pogacar or Hirschi probably would've won it, if not for the swerve. Roglic looked to be racing for 4th place but couldn't believe his luck when the door opened for him to win.
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| Arberg |
Posted on 29-10-2020 14:57
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 265
Joined: 09-04-2018
PCM$: 200.00
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I would give them both (Roglic and Pogacar) 82 in mountain. They are just as strong in the mountains.
83 is if one is much better than all the others like this: https://www.youtu...2xv2Hg2fkI
https://www.youtu...bVr481vCIk
https://www.youtu...uT_72SdXa4
https://www.youtu...lsZMZ_QPXo |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 29-10-2020 15:39
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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In my opinion 83 is rare and should only be given in circumstances where a rider is dominating. Tony Martin in TT's deserved it a one points, Cancellare in Stamina and Froome when he was just unstoppable in the mountains. This year I don't see a 83 anywere.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Arberg |
Posted on 29-10-2020 15:41
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 265
Joined: 09-04-2018
PCM$: 200.00
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Ollfardh wrote:
In my opinion 83 is rare and should only be given in circumstances where a rider is dominating. Tony Martin in TT's deserved it a one points, Cancellare in Stamina and Froome when he was just unstoppable in the mountains. This year I don't see a 83 anywere. Completely agree. |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 29-10-2020 15:45
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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I think I even gave 84 to Cancellara at some point in the early 2010's, but yeah, 82 max this year.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| AiZaK |
Posted on 29-10-2020 15:55
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Protected Rider
Posts: 1190
Joined: 13-04-2008
PCM$: 200.00
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Ollfardh wrote:
In my opinion 83 is rare and should only be given in circumstances where a rider is dominating. Tony Martin in TT's deserved it a one points, Cancellare in Stamina and Froome when he was just unstoppable in the mountains. This year I don't see a 83 anywere.
I only see one rider with 83. Alaphilippe in Hills |
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 29-10-2020 16:13
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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AiZaK wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
In my opinion 83 is rare and should only be given in circumstances where a rider is dominating. Tony Martin in TT's deserved it a one points, Cancellare in Stamina and Froome when he was just unstoppable in the mountains. This year I don't see a 83 anywere.
I only see one rider with 83. Alaphilippe in Hills
Not even that in my opinion. He didn't win Liege, he didn't ride Fleche Wallonne or Lombardia. Ok, he's world champion, but Gilbert and Valverde definitely had better seasons at some point in their career.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 29-10-2020 16:19
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
Joined: 27-07-2011
PCM$: 10438.70
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Ollfardh wrote:
AiZaK wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
In my opinion 83 is rare and should only be given in circumstances where a rider is dominating. Tony Martin in TT's deserved it a one points, Cancellare in Stamina and Froome when he was just unstoppable in the mountains. This year I don't see a 83 anywere.
I only see one rider with 83. Alaphilippe in Hills
Not even that in my opinion. He didn't win Liege, he didn't ride Fleche Wallonne or Lombardia. Ok, he's world champion, but Gilbert and Valverde definitely had better seasons at some point in their career.
Agree Alaph is not an 83, but Gilbert was a clear 83 for me at least in 2011, if not 84. Unbeatable.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 29-10-2020 16:21
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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Ollfardh wrote:
AiZaK wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
In my opinion 83 is rare and should only be given in circumstances where a rider is dominating. Tony Martin in TT's deserved it a one points, Cancellare in Stamina and Froome when he was just unstoppable in the mountains. This year I don't see a 83 anywere.
I only see one rider with 83. Alaphilippe in Hills
Not even that in my opinion. He didn't win Liege, he didn't ride Fleche Wallonne or Lombardia. Ok, he's world champion, but Gilbert and Valverde definitely had better seasons at some point in their career.
Closest to 83 would be Ganna TT really. He's been untouchable since the re-start, but going back to include last season he was competitive but hardly dominant.
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 29-10-2020 18:55
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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With the stats stretch out to 83 only three riders were given this: Pogacar, Alaphilippe and Ganna with Roglic only a possibility. Also before releasing with 83 we would've done some testing anyway to see how they playout in races.
But if 83 is not used but I agree that if we keep one 83 that would be Ganna and the others could be changed back to 82 no problem.
It seems most opinions want 82 as the max for now.
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 29-10-2020 19:25
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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I agree with TMM on Ganna, probably the one that comes closest to 83, but yeah, he did everything in a few months.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 05:43
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Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 29-10-2020 19:35
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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Ollfardh wrote:
I agree with TMM on Ganna, probably the one that comes closest to 83, but yeah, he did everything in a few months.
If we don't use 83 for at least a couple of riders then I think 82 max should be used for all now. Ganna as said has done everything in just a few months after a lockdown season where loads of riders haven't found their true form. Thinking more had Dennis not slaved away at the Giro he may have done better against Ganna and even WVA after the Tour almost came close to winning the World TT. Also if it works in-game Ganna would also get the benefit of the nationality bonus for both the Worlds and the Giro
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| andrew7taylor |
Posted on 29-10-2020 19:49
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Free Agent
Posts: 130
Joined: 20-04-2019
PCM$: 200.00
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Tafiolmo wrote:
Arberg wrote:
Roglic and Pogacar must have the same in mountain. Difference was on time trial, where Roglic had a bad day and Pogacar had very super good day +5.
Roglic and Pogacar must also have the same in hills. We saw in the tour and in Liège–Bastogne–Liège. Roglic also won Vuelta last year and favorite to win the Vuelta again this year.
Not one are better than Roglic, not even Pogacar.
You change your mind like the weather
On a more serious note let's see how Roglic does over the next big mtn stages and next week and he if he has the same form then 83 mtn but if not and Carapaz can come close to him then maybe 82 mtn.
I wouldn't use LBL as an argument though as Alaphilippe ruined that race with his swerve as he was too fatigued to win and Pogacar or Hirschi probably would've won it, if not for the swerve. Roglic looked to be racing for 4th place but couldn't believe his luck when the door opened for him to win.
You're saying that a flat sprint at the end of Liége has anything to do how good Roglic and Pogacar are at climbing for the whole race before that? Put your thinking cap on, man.
He's saying that there was no measurable difference between their hill stat. Alaphilippe and Hirschi pulled away from them on the climb (better hill and accelaration). If there was a difference between Roglic and Pogacar, then one would've tried to follow the punchers or pulled away at least. But they didn't so there wasn't. |
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| andrew7taylor |
Posted on 29-10-2020 20:09
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Free Agent
Posts: 130
Joined: 20-04-2019
PCM$: 200.00
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Ollfardh wrote:
AiZaK wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
In my opinion 83 is rare and should only be given in circumstances where a rider is dominating. Tony Martin in TT's deserved it a one points, Cancellare in Stamina and Froome when he was just unstoppable in the mountains. This year I don't see a 83 anywere.
I only see one rider with 83. Alaphilippe in Hills
Not even that in my opinion. He didn't win Liege, he didn't ride Fleche Wallonne or Lombardia. Ok, he's world champion, but Gilbert and Valverde definitely had better seasons at some point in their career.
You're saying let's stat people based on only their results in certain races only this year?
Why not stat people based on how good they are with that stat and recognising that results don't come from 1 single stat?
He initiated the attack that went the distance at Sanremo for 2 seasons in a row.
He initiated the attack that won in Liége this year too. Only Hirschi could stay in his slipstream when he attacked on a climb. What happened after that on the flat has nothing to do with his hill stat.
He won WC by putting on the afterburners on a 10+% slope and nobody being able to even hold his wheel.
He won Tour stages both last and this year by punching clear even when everyone expected him to.
He's been 1st or 2nd for 4 starts in a row at Fléche Wallone, which is the biggest race about pure hill climbing at the end.
It's pretty clear that his hill is a level above everybody else's now that Valverde's declined. |
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| Arberg |
Posted on 30-10-2020 06:34
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 265
Joined: 09-04-2018
PCM$: 200.00
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Alaphilippe = 82 HI
Ganna = 82 TT
Groenewegen, Ewan, Bennett = 82 SP
Pogacar, Roglic, Bernal = 82 MO
Van Aert and Van der Poel = 82 CO
No one deserves 83.
Edited by Arberg on 30-10-2020 09:23
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| Ollfardh |
Posted on 30-10-2020 09:14
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World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
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andrew7taylor wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
AiZaK wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
In my opinion 83 is rare and should only be given in circumstances where a rider is dominating. Tony Martin in TT's deserved it a one points, Cancellare in Stamina and Froome when he was just unstoppable in the mountains. This year I don't see a 83 anywere.
I only see one rider with 83. Alaphilippe in Hills
Not even that in my opinion. He didn't win Liege, he didn't ride Fleche Wallonne or Lombardia. Ok, he's world champion, but Gilbert and Valverde definitely had better seasons at some point in their career.
You're saying let's stat people based on only their results in certain races only this year?
Why not stat people based on how good they are with that stat and recognising that results don't come from 1 single stat?
He initiated the attack that went the distance at Sanremo for 2 seasons in a row.
He initiated the attack that won in Liége this year too. Only Hirschi could stay in his slipstream when he attacked on a climb. What happened after that on the flat has nothing to do with his hill stat.
He won WC by putting on the afterburners on a 10+% slope and nobody being able to even hold his wheel.
He won Tour stages both last and this year by punching clear even when everyone expected him to.
He's been 1st or 2nd for 4 starts in a row at Fléche Wallone, which is the biggest race about pure hill climbing at the end.
It's pretty clear that his hill is a level above everybody else's now that Valverde's declined.
Same goes for last year actually, he only won Fleche in the Ardennes, didn't podium the other two. No Lombardia, no San Sebastian. That's not dominating like Gilbert or Valverde once did.
I completely agree he's the best puncheur right now, but that alone doesn't deserve an 83 in my book. Most of all, he has never won Liege and has never won Lombardia.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
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| Arberg |
Posted on 30-10-2020 09:27
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Neo-Pro
Posts: 265
Joined: 09-04-2018
PCM$: 200.00
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Ollfardh wrote:
andrew7taylor wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
AiZaK wrote:
Ollfardh wrote:
In my opinion 83 is rare and should only be given in circumstances where a rider is dominating. Tony Martin in TT's deserved it a one points, Cancellare in Stamina and Froome when he was just unstoppable in the mountains. This year I don't see a 83 anywere.
I only see one rider with 83. Alaphilippe in Hills
Not even that in my opinion. He didn't win Liege, he didn't ride Fleche Wallonne or Lombardia. Ok, he's world champion, but Gilbert and Valverde definitely had better seasons at some point in their career.
You're saying let's stat people based on only their results in certain races only this year?
Why not stat people based on how good they are with that stat and recognising that results don't come from 1 single stat?
He initiated the attack that went the distance at Sanremo for 2 seasons in a row.
He initiated the attack that won in Liége this year too. Only Hirschi could stay in his slipstream when he attacked on a climb. What happened after that on the flat has nothing to do with his hill stat.
He won WC by putting on the afterburners on a 10+% slope and nobody being able to even hold his wheel.
He won Tour stages both last and this year by punching clear even when everyone expected him to.
He's been 1st or 2nd for 4 starts in a row at Fléche Wallone, which is the biggest race about pure hill climbing at the end.
It's pretty clear that his hill is a level above everybody else's now that Valverde's declined.
Same goes for last year actually, he only won Fleche in the Ardennes, didn't podium the other two. No Lombardia, no San Sebastian. That's not dominating like Gilbert or Valverde once did.
I completely agree he's the best puncheur right now, but that alone doesn't deserve an 83 in my book. Most of all, he has never won Liege and has never won Lombardia. Exactly. Alaphilippe is the best human being now, but Gilbert was a supernatural being in 2011 that won all! https://www.youtu...lsZMZ_QPXo
Edited by Arberg on 30-10-2020 09:44
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| TheManxMissile |
Posted on 30-10-2020 11:19
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Tour de France Champion
Posts: 18187
Joined: 12-05-2012
PCM$: 0.00
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What's the thinking on Demare?
4 Giro stages, European RR and generally dominated the races he's entered since the restart. Last season was strong, in fact again the Giro was really good and finished the season strongly.
Interested to see what stat's he's being given
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| jeremyrobin |
Posted on 30-10-2020 17:05
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Under 23
Posts: 59
Joined: 29-09-2014
PCM$: 200.00
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Little up for Gerben Thijssen (Lotto Soudal) ? |
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| Tafiolmo |
Posted on 30-10-2020 19:56
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Sprinter
Posts: 1962
Joined: 10-04-2013
PCM$: 200.00
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MM: We currently have Demare 81/79 but given that he's the best power sprinter right now 82/79 might be good for him. The Giro had a weak field but i'd say that he would've been good enough to have won a stage or two at the Tour had he gone there with this kind of form.
JR: Thijssen has been noted and is being increased little by little.
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![imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg](https://imgur.com/KlJUqDx.jpg[/img[img]]https://imgur.com/yUygrQ.jpg)
