|
Tour De France 2020
|
| sylvao |
Posted on 11-09-2020 22:41
|
Neo-Pro
Posts: 303
Joined: 28-06-2010
PCM$: 2100.00
|
Sorry for Bardet.
There are still hard stages remaining. Top 10 is still playable for a lot of riders. |
| |
|
|
| Croatia14 |
Posted on 11-09-2020 23:14
|
Directeur Sportif
Posts: 9099
Joined: 13-03-2013
PCM$: 2100.00
|
If even cycling fans can't lay a bit of trust in their top competitors then who could!? Reading some comments here its no surprise how cycling is still viewed as some shady sport in loads of media. That's embarrassing to me. |
| |
|
|
| Shonak |
Posted on 11-09-2020 23:18
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15615
Joined: 16-07-2013
PCM$: 350.00
|
alexkr00 wrote:
And everyone claiming the Slovenians are shady... they aren't any shadier than the others in the top 10.
Hey, everyone is doing it so it's okay lol
In seriousness,except for Landa, MAL and Nairito.. how are the others on that level, how are Uran or Mas shadier than the ski jumper for example - becauseo of their crazy merckx like win ratio throughout the year? I think that only applies to Roglic, who rides for Rabodope, I mean Jumbo lol
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
|
| |
|
|
| quadsas |
Posted on 11-09-2020 23:20
|
Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2518
Joined: 18-01-2013
PCM$: 300.00
|
Croatia14 wrote:
If even cycling fans can't lay a bit of trust in their top competitors then who could!? Reading some comments here its no surprise how cycling is still viewed as some shady sport in loads of media. That's embarrassing to me.
Compared to other big sports...cycling is so much shadier than the rest that theyre at the edge of the universe. If theres no doping (actually caught and not 'i guess hes doping but ok' for a good couple decades maybe Ill consider sport to be clean. But its a complete shitshow from organisers to riders
|
| |
|
|
| Shonak |
Posted on 11-09-2020 23:22
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15615
Joined: 16-07-2013
PCM$: 350.00
|
Croatia14 wrote:
If even cycling fans can't lay a bit of trust in their top competitors then who could!? Reading some comments here its no surprise how cycling is still viewed as some shady sport in loads of media. That's embarrassing to me.
I love the sport and I love to ride my bike, but cycling fans have been burnt too many times. It's like ppl have no memory whatsoever of the past three decades lol Same story, different actors.
Best to lie back, troll a bit, call them out, and enjoy the race. But please don't lecture, and don't believe in those riders. They are humans after all, and thus flawed.
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
|
| |
|
|
| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 11-09-2020 23:25
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
Joined: 27-07-2011
PCM$: 10438.70
|
Croatia14 wrote:
If even cycling fans can't lay a bit of trust in their top competitors then who could!? Reading some comments here its no surprise how cycling is still viewed as some shady sport in loads of media. That's embarrassing to me.
Cause it is a shady sport still. I believe that. I wish it wasn't. But I haven't been convinced.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
| |
|
|
| alexkr00 |
Posted on 11-09-2020 23:47
|
World Champion
Posts: 13915
Joined: 05-08-2008
PCM$: 300.00
|
Shonak wrote:
alexkr00 wrote:
And everyone claiming the Slovenians are shady... they aren't any shadier than the others in the top 10.
Hey, everyone is doing it so it's okay lol
In seriousness,except for Landa, MAL and Nairito.. how are the others on that level, how are Uran or Mas shadier than the ski jumper for example - becauseo of their crazy merckx like win ratio throughout the year? I think that only applies to Roglic, who rides for Rabodope, I mean Jumbo lol
Yes, because Roglic started cycling one year ago and now is winning the Tour de France. He had a very linear progress if you really look at it. So claiming he's shady because he started cycling later than others is not really an argument here.
For Jumbo (having already made the switch to cycling 3 years prior), he started with some promising results in second tier races and those highlights in the Giro time - Trials.
Next year he showed very good results in one week races, but only actually won in Algarve. And a stage win in the Tour after a breakaway.
In the third year he actually started winning one week World Tour races and went for his first GC in a Grand Tour, failing to finish on the podium.
By the fourth year, he seemed to have mastered the one week races before getting his maiden Grand Tour podium at Il Giro and then his first Grand Tour win in La Vuelta.
So it's not like he suddenly came out of nowhere to contest Grand Tour wins. So even though it might have seem like a fast forward his career did take step after step.
And you claim he is shady because he is riding for "rabodope", but not see how Mas can be shady for riding for Movistar. The team that had a rider suspended for doping while riding for them and then went on to hire back that rider once his suspension was over. Definitely not a sketchy team.
And if we are at this point. Let's have a look at the top 10 beyond the shady Slovenians:
- Bernal. rides for Ineos
- Uran. rode for Movistar and Ineos
- Quintana. rode for Movistar
- MAL. rides for Astana
- Adam Yates. not really much to say here expect that issues his brother had, but since the will be riding for different teams next year maybe they are not that close 
- Landa. rode for Astana, Ineos and Movistar. Three in a row
- Porte. got a lucky top 10 in the Giro thanks to that massive breakaway. Seemed to have forgotten how to ride a bike next year when Contador needed him, before being reborn at... Ineos
- Mas. rides for Movistar
I'm not saying these guys are clean. Far from it. I'm saying that the arguments made against them can be made against everyone else too. So don't see why you'd point the finger at them while cheering for the others.
If this was a 2011 Cobo and Froome at La Vuelta or a 2013 Horner at La Vuelta, I'd understand if the first thing you do is point the fingers at the them. But that is not the case now.
Edited by alexkr00 on 11-09-2020 23:52
|
| |
|
|
| Ollfardh |
Posted on 11-09-2020 23:53
|
World Champion
Posts: 14563
Joined: 08-08-2011
PCM$: 9100.00
|
Roglic is alarmbells all over the place, but I don't see what makes Pogacar so suspicious? He had decent youth results and his progress as a pro is not unline others we've seen recently, Bernal, Evenepoel on the road and of course Wout and Mathieu dominated cyclocross in their first pro seasons.
Changed my sig, this was getting absurd.
|
| |
|
|
| rogvi97 |
Posted on 12-09-2020 00:15
|
Breakaway Specialist
Posts: 933
Joined: 10-07-2012
PCM$: 200.00
|
It seems strange though, that Bernal put out his best numbers today and yet still lost 40 seconds to Pogacar and Roglic. It sets it a bit shady, yes but could it be a simple lack of support for Bernal, that he lost time today?
No signature available
|
| |
|
|
| Shonak |
Posted on 12-09-2020 07:42
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 15615
Joined: 16-07-2013
PCM$: 350.00
|
I am not concerned about Roglic's nor Pogacar's development, I am concerned about the numbers that they put out and in the matter of Roglic that he doesn't seem to show any sign of pain. Will see how it is on Grand Colombier but breaking records from.the dark past always rings my alarm bells, it is the still one of the few indicators that we have.
So I see no issue when we say someone is shady, especially when there have been rumours about this country, and two slovenians were suspended for it last year. Is guilt by association cool? No, but why should we just believe anything we see? Its not that by the end of the day our opinion makes a difference here.
I think that the difference between the teams you listed and former Rabobank is pretty clear that it was proven that they had systematic doping in place afair. That was only similiar to Astana / Once.
@Ollfardh: Incredible talent that would be on top either way like Sagan or Valv but UAE is former Lampre and as I said, breaking records, slovenian suspensions and outclimbing everyone doesnt get you off such a list of suspicion.
"It’s a little bit scary when Contador attacks." - Tommy V
|
| |
|
|
| Ad Bot |
Posted on 22-11-2024 22:39
|
Bot Agent
Posts: Countless
Joined: 23.11.09
|
|
| IP: None |
|
|
| Sykkel_Freak |
Posted on 12-09-2020 08:30
|
Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2073
Joined: 11-07-2010
PCM$: 200.00
|
Shonak wrote:
Will see how it is on Grand Colombier but breaking records from.the dark past always rings my alarm bells, it is the still one of the few indicators that we have.
This is an indicator that keeps becoming less reliable with time, though. Nutrition, training, riding position etc. have been greatly improved in the past 15-20 years. Bikes are lighter, components are more advanced and so on.
|
| |
|
|
| vaamos |
Posted on 12-09-2020 09:01
|
Amateur
Posts: 3
Joined: 10-07-2009
PCM$: 200.00
|
Shonak wrote:
I am not concerned about Roglic's nor Pogacar's development, I am concerned about the numbers that they put out and in the matter of Roglic that he doesn't seem to show any sign of pain. Will see how it is on Grand Colombier but breaking records from.the dark past always rings my alarm bells, it is the still one of the few indicators that we have.
So I see no issue when we say someone is shady, especially when there have been rumours about this country, and two slovenians were suspended for it last year. Is guilt by association cool? No, but why should we just believe anything we see? Its not that by the end of the day our opinion makes a difference here.
I think that the difference between the teams you listed and former Rabobank is pretty clear that it was proven that they had systematic doping in place afair. That was only similiar to Astana / Once.
@Ollfardh: Incredible talent that would be on top either way like Sagan or Valv but UAE is former Lampre and as I said, breaking records, slovenian suspensions and outclimbing everyone doesnt get you off such a list of suspicion.
Koren and Bozic were suspended for their time at Liquigas and Astana, both were teammates with Nibali for three years in that period and then they were also together at Bahrain. This seems more suspicious then judging based on nationality. And I am not pointing out at Nibali, but Koren has better relationship with him than Roglic or Pogacar. |
| |
|
|
| StevenGreen |
Posted on 12-09-2020 10:01
|
Domestique
Posts: 571
Joined: 25-12-2011
PCM$: 200.00
|
Shonak wrote:
Croatia14 wrote:
If even cycling fans can't lay a bit of trust in their top competitors then who could!? Reading some comments here its no surprise how cycling is still viewed as some shady sport in loads of media. That's embarrassing to me.
I love the sport and I love to ride my bike, but cycling fans have been burnt too many times. It's like ppl have no memory whatsoever of the past three decades lol Same story, different actors.
Best to lie back, troll a bit, call them out, and enjoy the race. But please don't lecture, and don't believe in those riders. They are humans after all, and thus flawed.
This.
"He made a bigger comeback than Easter Sunday."
|
| |
|
|
| alexkr00 |
Posted on 12-09-2020 11:48
|
World Champion
Posts: 13915
Joined: 05-08-2008
PCM$: 300.00
|
Shonak wrote:
I am not concerned about Roglic's nor Pogacar's development, I am concerned about the numbers that they put out and in the matter of Roglic that he doesn't seem to show any sign of pain. Will see how it is on Grand Colombier but breaking records from.the dark past always rings my alarm bells, it is the still one of the few indicators that we have.
So I see no issue when we say someone is shady, especially when there have been rumours about this country, and two slovenians were suspended for it last year. Is guilt by association cool? No, but why should we just believe anything we see? Its not that by the end of the day our opinion makes a difference here.
I think that the difference between the teams you listed and former Rabobank is pretty clear that it was proven that they had systematic doping in place afair. That was only similiar to Astana / Once.
@Ollfardh: Incredible talent that would be on top either way like Sagan or Valv but UAE is former Lampre and as I said, breaking records, slovenian suspensions and outclimbing everyone doesnt get you off such a list of suspicion.
If you are not concerned about their development why bring up the fact that Roglic started as a ski jumper. That's clearly what you meant by that.
If you are only concerned about the numbers then why bring up the nationalities and teams again?
And how exactly is not Movistar a bad team? They had the same leader for ages (dark ages) and publicly showed that they tolerate doping at the very least.
Pogacar is not believable as a huge talent because he rides for the former Lampre team, but Valverde is when he has actually been suspected for doping? 
In the end, you just don't like Roglic and Pogacar. And that is fine. But don't point fingers at them when if you'd use the same standards you claim you judge them by on the others you'd see there's not much of a difference.
We don't make idols of these riders and we don't blatantly trust them. And we do want to enjoy the race. But it's hard to do that when right after the stage finish you read comments where these guys are walking positives but you applaud Landa's performances.
|
| |
|
|
| redordead |
Posted on 12-09-2020 12:18
|
Grand Tour Specialist
Posts: 4881
Joined: 18-10-2017
PCM$: 200.00
|
alexkr00 wrote:
Shonak wrote:
I am not concerned about Roglic's nor Pogacar's development, I am concerned about the numbers that they put out and in the matter of Roglic that he doesn't seem to show any sign of pain. Will see how it is on Grand Colombier but breaking records from.the dark past always rings my alarm bells, it is the still one of the few indicators that we have.
So I see no issue when we say someone is shady, especially when there have been rumours about this country, and two slovenians were suspended for it last year. Is guilt by association cool? No, but why should we just believe anything we see? Its not that by the end of the day our opinion makes a difference here.
I think that the difference between the teams you listed and former Rabobank is pretty clear that it was proven that they had systematic doping in place afair. That was only similiar to Astana / Once.
@Ollfardh: Incredible talent that would be on top either way like Sagan or Valv but UAE is former Lampre and as I said, breaking records, slovenian suspensions and outclimbing everyone doesnt get you off such a list of suspicion.
If you are not concerned about their development why bring up the fact that Roglic started as a ski jumper. That's clearly what you meant by that.
If you are only concerned about the numbers then why bring up the nationalities and teams again?
And how exactly is not Movistar a bad team? They had the same leader for ages (dark ages) and publicly showed that they tolerate doping at the very least.
Pogacar is not believable as a huge talent because he rides for the former Lampre team, but Valverde is when he has actually been suspected for doping?
In the end, you just don't like Roglic and Pogacar. And that is fine. But don't point fingers at them when if you'd use the same standards you claim you judge them by on the others you'd see there's not much of a difference.
We don't make idols of these riders and we don't blatantly trust them. And we do want to enjoy the race. But it's hard to do that when right after the stage finish you read comments where these guys are walking positives but you applaud Landa's performances.
This.
"I am a cyclist, I may not be the best, but that is what I strive to be. I may never get there, but I will never quit trying." - Tadej Pogačar
|
| |
|
|
| baseballlover312 |
Posted on 12-09-2020 14:05
|
Tour de France Champion
Posts: 16429
Joined: 27-07-2011
PCM$: 10438.70
|
Sykkel_Freak wrote:
Shonak wrote:
Will see how it is on Grand Colombier but breaking records from.the dark past always rings my alarm bells, it is the still one of the few indicators that we have.
This is an indicator that keeps becoming less reliable with time, though. Nutrition, training, riding position etc. have been greatly improved in the past 15-20 years. Bikes are lighter, components are more advanced and so on.
The marginal gains argument still doesn't add up to me. Bikes haven't become THAT much lighter. Nutrition hasn't been THAT much improved. Riding position up climbs hasn't changed THAT much. We're talking about a scenario where those things not only allow someone to equal the power/times of those on EPO, but destroy them at 21 years old. I just don't believe that those adjustments and improvements are more powerful than using EPO - or maybe EPO wasn't as big of a deal for competition as we thought.
I mean, I totally agree with alex that the rest of the top 10 is also plenty suspicious. Probably most of the peloton still does shady stuff and finds new ways to get ahead. It's not just limited to the guys at the top, who likely still have a great amount of talent. The stuff they do may not even be illegal (yet). But it's hard for me to believe something isn't up right now with the time these people are putting out up mountains.
RIP Exxon Duke, David Veilleux, Double Feature, and Monster Energy |
| |
|
|
| Sykkel_Freak |
Posted on 12-09-2020 15:17
|
Small Tour Specialist
Posts: 2073
Joined: 11-07-2010
PCM$: 200.00
|
baseballlover312 wrote:
Sykkel_Freak wrote:
Shonak wrote:
Will see how it is on Grand Colombier but breaking records from.the dark past always rings my alarm bells, it is the still one of the few indicators that we have.
This is an indicator that keeps becoming less reliable with time, though. Nutrition, training, riding position etc. have been greatly improved in the past 15-20 years. Bikes are lighter, components are more advanced and so on.
The marginal gains argument still doesn't add up to me. Bikes haven't become THAT much lighter. Nutrition hasn't been THAT much improved. Riding position up climbs hasn't changed THAT much. We're talking about a scenario where those things not only allow someone to equal the power/times of those on EPO, but destroy them at 21 years old. I just don't believe that those adjustments and improvements are more powerful than using EPO - or maybe EPO wasn't as big of a deal for competition as we thought.
I don’t have enough knowledge about sports science to make arguments that holds any sort of weight in such a discussion. But the idea that gradual, small improvements in a wide range of areas and over an extended period of time adds up to have a meaningfull impact on performance seems logical to me. Having said that, knowing the history of the sport, it’s fair to be sceptical - to some extent I am too. I just don’t think you can draw conclusions from records being broken after 15-20 years. And maybe especially in a year where the build-up to the Tour has been very different from anything we’ve seen in the past.
|
| |
|
|
| Croatia14 |
Posted on 12-09-2020 16:15
|
Directeur Sportif
Posts: 9099
Joined: 13-03-2013
PCM$: 2100.00
|
We need the upvote possibilities back.
In all these discussions you realize that Roglic has been an elite athlete in sports before he even started his cycling career? Yes, I am biased of course, I follow this guy since he applied at Adria Mobil with 2000kms of cycling in total in his CV and no bike riding skills whatsoever, just great numbers in the short sample size. For Roglic's development, you should not only look at how he physically develops, most of his progress is made due to the learning curve of how he still improves at understanding cycling and the processes around him. Other riders make these jumps in junior or u23-Ranks, Roglic had them on WT level just because he had a different path than the typical cyclists.
|
| |
|
|
| sylvao |
Posted on 12-09-2020 16:52
|
Neo-Pro
Posts: 303
Joined: 28-06-2010
PCM$: 2100.00
|
Danish victory ! The today stage was fun to watch with the green jersey fighting but Sagan lost all team mates in that play. |
| |
|
|
| Ulrich Ulriksen |
Posted on 12-09-2020 16:53
|
Directeur Sportif
Posts: 3262
Joined: 02-11-2010
PCM$: 300.00
|
Credit to Bora for making it interesting and credit to Sunweb for taking advantage - again. You would have thought other teams have riders capable of matching that tactic.
Man Game: McCormick Pro Cycling |
| |
|
