Welcome to the new thread where you can discuss the stats for the PCM.daily Projects for PCM 20.
Everything written down here will be considered for the next releases of our projects.
Keep in mind that top stats are the most noticeable stats, but those are most often a matter of opinion. I advice people to change some of those stats to their own likings if you don't agree to the stats in our projects.
For us it'd be much more useful to especially discuss stats about smaller riders, those are often easier to miss.
Rules
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2. Don't make fun of suggestions of other members. Everyone can post their suggestions. It's up to our statmakers to decide what to do with them.
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What I'm most interested in is getting feedback in regards to the leading sprinters, as we have recently upgraded the top five or six sprinters in terms of sprint and acc for this DB release. This was done as I personally found that too many second tier sprinters those with 76-78 sprint stats were finishing higher than they should and were certainly doing better against the top sprinters than they would in real life. So we hope that by increasing the sprint stats of the really top names that they should do better and win more often as they do in real life.
So looking for feedback as to how sprinters do in the new DB and I know that the game AI has a big focus here especially with the forming of sprint trains and how they organize etc. So feedback and any stat suggestions for sprinters is most welcome, as I would say its the hardest combo of stats to get right.
Edited by Tafiolmo on 16-06-2020 08:42
Generally I really like the stats. They are more realistic and accurate than those of PCM World DB on Steam. Cheers! I will test the game in the next weeks to give more feedback.
nobeer wrote:
Generally I really like the stats. They are more realistic and accurate than those of PCM World DB on Steam. Cheers! I will test the game in the next weeks to give more feedback.
Thanks for the comment and support it's much appreciated.
The sprinter stats are really something that need to be tested over a number of races anyway and will start my own testing with the new game and DB gradually over the coming weeks and months
One thing I'd point out. I get Evenepoel's stats, but in career mode he develops as a barouder and not a stage racer, which Im not sure is realistic. Perhaps setting his rider type to stage racer would solve this without needing to change his stats, but its a bit disappointing that one of the biggest talents in cycling, in the past 10 years basically just goes from 79 FL, 79 BAR to 83 FL, 82 BAR with no real improvement in his TT or climbing stats.
You could also make the argument, that based on his Algarve performance, he could use an upgrade to his MO as well.
This is the profile of the stage that he won.
valverde321 wrote:
Perhaps setting his rider type to stage racer would solve this without needing to change his stats.
Is it possible to manually override the specialisation assignment?
I thought it gets calculated automatically at the start of a career based purely on stats.
I can't comment on his stats because I don't know them, but while we're on the topic, can anyone report on whether Remco rides the Worlds ITT now?
He literally never did even just once in any of my PCM19 careers with the DailyDB.
valverde321 wrote:
Perhaps setting his rider type to stage racer would solve this without needing to change his stats.
Is it possible to manually override the specialisation assignment?
I thought it gets calculated automatically at the start of a career based purely on stats.
I can't comment on his stats because I don't know them, but while we're on the topic, can anyone report on whether Remco rides the Worlds ITT now?
He literally never did even just once in any of my PCM19 careers with the DailyDB.
I noticed a lot of riders are set to 0 in the rider type, but Froome f.e is set to 1, so I just thought maybe its possible.
Also the Worlds issue is not a db issue but a game issue. I think PCM career explorer is planning to fix that in an upcoming update though.
We've been looking at 'rider type' recently but only very briefly and have yet to take it further and agree with Remco and his rider type issues. But we decided not to upgrade Remco after Algarve yet due to the season coming to a premature halt due to the virus. When the season restarts I'm sure Remco will prove what he's worth. It is worth bearing in mind though that we gave him an insane RES which is 81 the best in the DB which can allow him to do great performances if things go well.
I've also noticed in the official PCM20 DB that Froome is 79 mtn and it seems that they have anticipated that's what he could be after that terrible crash after originally having him as their highest mtn stat. We reduced him to 81 mtn and interested in thoughts on what he should be 81, 80 or 79? Luckily if the season goes ahead which looks likely we will know soon enough but it is an interesting question.
Tafiolmo wrote:
We've been looking at 'rider type' recently but only very briefly and have yet to take it further and agree with Remco and his rider type issues.
It is worth bearing in mind though that we gave him an insane RES which is 81 the best in the DB which can allow him to do great performances if things go well.
IMO rider types are absolutely needed to be set in the DB. Otherwise Cyanide's formula calculates them, and it's so bad.
EG. for some reason they think that riders with high TT, lower mountain and lower recovery still like Dennis, Castroviejo etc. are stage racers, but they should obviously be time trialists.
Riders like Ion Izaguirre with high mountain, recovery and TT just a couple of points off are calculated to be climbers and not stage riders, etc. It's a load of BS.
May I ask what's the rationale for giving him 81 res? Don't you think it's a bit premature to give him the very best in such a crucial stat before he even raced the biggest races (GTs and Monuments)? Let alone proved himself against the best?
Tafiolmo wrote:
We've been looking at 'rider type' recently but only very briefly and have yet to take it further and agree with Remco and his rider type issues.
It is worth bearing in mind though that we gave him an insane RES which is 81 the best in the DB which can allow him to do great performances if things go well.
IMO rider types are absolutely needed to be set in the DB. Otherwise Cyanide's formula calculates them, and it's so bad.
EG. for some reason they think that riders with high TT, lower mountain and lower recovery still like Dennis, Castroviejo etc. are stage racers, but they should obviously be time trialists.
Riders like Ion Izaguirre with high mountain, recovery and TT just a couple of points off are calculated to be climbers and not stage riders, etc. It's a load of BS.
May I ask what's the rationale for giving him 81 res? Don't you think it's a bit premature to give him the very best in such a crucial stat before he even raced the biggest races (GTs and Monuments)? Let alone proved himself against the best?
Have you looked at the guys watts? I don't think there's a better way to express that than the RES stat.
Remco might be the most difficult to stat right now. As you talked about GTs and Monuments, imo they do have a lot more influence on REC (GTs) and STA (Monuments). Res is about how you can sustain high level efforts, like f.e. long range attacks. I think you can extract them best from their riding style and how they can sustain solo attacks. That's why riders like Kasper Asgreen, Stefan Küng,... have high RES: They might not be outstanding from the bunch, but once they're gone they're much harder to catch than other riders with similar skillsets. Remco Evenepoel has shown that maybe his biggest strength is his resistance once he's on the road, especially solo, cause he can push a higher pace for longer efforts than many others. That's best reflected in the Res stat and not in the main stats, and that's why his main stats are lower than you might expect from his results, but instead his RES stat is massive. It's about drawing what a rider can do more than just translating good hill results in good hill stats. That's also why riders may look "over-/underpowered by just looking at the hill/mountain/flat stat, but other areas of their game are designed to make up for that and have the riders race more like they'd do in the real world of cycling.
valverde321 wrote:
Perhaps setting his rider type to stage racer would solve this without needing to change his stats.
Is it possible to manually override the specialisation assignment?
I thought it gets calculated automatically at the start of a career based purely on stats.
I can't comment on his stats because I don't know them, but while we're on the topic, can anyone report on whether Remco rides the Worlds ITT now?
He literally never did even just once in any of my PCM19 careers with the DailyDB.
If I understand your question correct then yes:
I think any issues with "changes overridden" comes from "steam/PCM" overriding the DB, easily fixed by making a folder "MY GAME" in the mod folder, with a copy of the OfficialRelease.cdb and load all games from there, as "steam/PCM" won't override a mod.
Regarding the Algrave stage "João Almeida" practically delivered him close to the red kite, not saying he is not good but just that we can't put too much into one result more or less off-season
Edited by Tamijo on 08-07-2020 11:57
Tafiolmo wrote:
We've been looking at 'rider type' recently but only very briefly and have yet to take it further and agree with Remco and his rider type issues.
It is worth bearing in mind though that we gave him an insane RES which is 81 the best in the DB which can allow him to do great performances if things go well.
IMO rider types are absolutely needed to be set in the DB. Otherwise Cyanide's formula calculates them, and it's so bad.
EG. for some reason they think that riders with high TT, lower mountain and lower recovery still like Dennis, Castroviejo etc. are stage racers, but they should obviously be time trialists.
Riders like Ion Izaguirre with high mountain, recovery and TT just a couple of points off are calculated to be climbers and not stage riders, etc. It's a load of BS.
May I ask what's the rationale for giving him 81 res? Don't you think it's a bit premature to give him the very best in such a crucial stat before he even raced the biggest races (GTs and Monuments)? Let alone proved himself against the best?
Have you looked at the guys watts? I don't think there's a better way to express that than the RES stat.
Have you looked at the guy's watts? If you actually did, you'd discover that he doesn't do as many as other elite cyclists.
You'd discover that he only did about 320 at the WC ITT, which is pretty low. But he is so talented aerodynamically that he uses that much more efficiently than other time trial specialists.
And anyway, RES is not how many watts can a guy do. It's for how long he can sustain an anaerobic effort.
Tafiolmo wrote:
We've been looking at 'rider type' recently but only very briefly and have yet to take it further and agree with Remco and his rider type issues.
It is worth bearing in mind though that we gave him an insane RES which is 81 the best in the DB which can allow him to do great performances if things go well.
IMO rider types are absolutely needed to be set in the DB. Otherwise Cyanide's formula calculates them, and it's so bad.
EG. for some reason they think that riders with high TT, lower mountain and lower recovery still like Dennis, Castroviejo etc. are stage racers, but they should obviously be time trialists.
Riders like Ion Izaguirre with high mountain, recovery and TT just a couple of points off are calculated to be climbers and not stage riders, etc. It's a load of BS.
May I ask what's the rationale for giving him 81 res? Don't you think it's a bit premature to give him the very best in such a crucial stat before he even raced the biggest races (GTs and Monuments)? Let alone proved himself against the best?
Have you looked at the guys watts? I don't think there's a better way to express that than the RES stat.
Have you looked at the guy's watts? If you actually did, you'd discover that he doesn't do as many as other elite cyclists.
You'd discover that he only did about 320 at the WC ITT, which is pretty low. But he is so talented aerodynamically that he uses that much more efficiently than other time trial specialists.
And anyway, RES is not how many watts can a guy do. It's for how long he can sustain an anaerobic effort.
That's exactly the thing, he can keep his watts high for 20 minutes, while others can only do that for 10. You're right of course that his bike position is great as well, but there's no real way to express that in game. Another thing he scores great on is his VO2 max, which again shows similarities to the RES stat.
Of course I'm not comparing to all other riders, I'm comparing to those with a similar build and weight.
Croatia14 wrote:
Remco might be the most difficult to stat right now. As you talked about GTs and Monuments, imo they do have a lot more influence on REC (GTs) and STA (Monuments). Res is about how you can sustain high level efforts, like f.e. long range attacks. I think you can extract them best from their riding style and how they can sustain solo attacks. That's why riders like Kasper Asgreen, Stefan Küng,... have high RES: They might not be outstanding from the bunch, but once they're gone they're much harder to catch than other riders with similar skillsets. Remco Evenepoel has shown that maybe his biggest strength is his resistance once he's on the road, especially solo, cause he can push a higher pace for longer efforts than many others. That's best reflected in the Res stat and not in the main stats, and that's why his main stats are lower than you might expect from his results, but instead his RES stat is massive. It's about drawing what a rider can do more than just translating good hill results in good hill stats. That's also why riders may look "over-/underpowered by just looking at the hill/mountain/flat stat, but other areas of their game are designed to make up for that and have the riders race more like they'd do in the real world of cycling.
I mentioned GTs and Monuments because in cycling to be the best, you have to beat the best in the biggest races at their top form. But apart from the single WC ITT, he hasn't even started the biggest races, let alone proved himself to be the best against the best at their best to give him the very best in any stat.
If RES to be the long distance solo attack attribute, then why doesn't De Gendt have the highest RES? He's been winning solo not for 1 year, but for a decade, and not stages of Adriatica Ionica, but Tour and Giro stages.
If RES is for how long a rider can push a higher pace, then why doesn't double ITT world champion Dennis or ITT world champion and Giro winner Dumoulin have higher RES? Time trials and long climbs are all about RES, and they're both much more proven at both than him.
I mentioned in another post in this thread that his power is actually not that great compared to other time trialists when you look at strava files. But his aerodynamics is amazing. Which means that his flat and his TT attributes should be great (cause then even with a smaller engine and with lower effort he'd be flying with incredible efficiency, like he is now).
But with lower flat, TT and prologue and higher RES, that would seem like he's not great aerodynamically, but is able to expend huge power to compensate for that, and that's not who he is.
Ollfardh wrote:
That's exactly the thing, he can keep his watts high for 20 minutes, while others can only do that for 10. You're right of course that his bike position is great as well, but there's no real way to express that in game. Another thing he scores great on is his VO2 max, which again shows similarities to the RES stat.
Of course I'm not comparing to all other riders, I'm comparing to those with a similar build and weight.
He may be able to keep his watts high longer than most riders. But he hasn't proven it yet that he can keep it up longer than everybody else on the planet.
There is a way to express aerodynamics in the game. Most skills are 'how fast you can go with any given effort'. If aerodynamics makes a given power more efficient, ergo faster, then giving him great skill at the two things he's proven at - flat and TT - would be doing the same thing, make him faster at a given effort than another guy who has worse aerdynamics, hence worse flat.
But RES compares him to everybody, not just to riders of similar height and weight!
I mentioned GTs and Monuments because in cycling to be the best, you have to beat the best in the biggest races at their top form. But apart from the single WC ITT, he hasn't even started the biggest races, let alone proved himself to be the best against the best at their best to give him the very best in any stat.
If RES to be the long distance solo attack attribute, then why doesn't De Gendt have the highest RES? He's been winning solo not for 1 year, but for a decade, and not stages of Adriatica Ionica, but Tour and Giro stages.
If RES is for how long a rider can push a higher pace, then why doesn't double ITT world champion Dennis or ITT world champion and Giro winner Dumoulin have higher RES? Time trials and long climbs are all about RES, and they're both much more proven at both than him.
I mentioned in another post in this thread that his power is actually not that great compared to other time trialists when you look at strava files. But his aerodynamics is amazing. Which means that his flat and his TT attributes should be great (cause then even with a smaller engine and with lower effort he'd be flying with incredible efficiency, like he is now).
But with lower flat, TT and prologue and higher RES, that would seem like he's not great aerodynamically, but is able to expend huge power to compensate for that, and that's not who he is.
Which is why in our DB Remco has lower climbing stats than most other DB's I've seen, we decided not to base too much on Algarve simply because its an early season race where much of the competition is not on top form, so you'll find that we have been quite hard on Remco until we know a bit more in climbing. Also you forgot to mention San Sebastian as one of the bigger races which was a huge victory for him. At the moment he is simply just being measured on his TT ability in terms of his main stats and in RES for his support stats and high RES at the moment is the best way to recreate him.
Also you need to remember that Dennis and Dumoulin who you've mentioned have higher main stats in what they're good at meaning that Remco could challenge them in TT which is realistic but certainly not Dumoulin in climbing (at the moment) also the RES of all these riders is comparable anyway.
De Gendt is a different story and very hard to stat, yes he has one of the highest RES stats but we can't give him much more in climbing for the simple reason he would never by the game AI in general be allowed to get away in a morning breakaway which is why we keep him at mid 70s climbing, to be fair to really recreate what De Gendt does in the game he needs to be player controlled and on a top form day to be able recreate what he does because the game AI probably won't create De Gendt as it should.
For the record with his current stats in in my playthroughs with PCM20 Remco actually performs poorer than he does irl simply because the game AI will treat him as a dom in general because he's in such a strong Quick Step team. For him to shine he will need to be improved more on the next update we do (providing of course he is performing well) and much like De Gendt probably needs to be player controlled to get the best out of him.
We've mentioned a number of times why Pinot is not on the top mtn stat. It's mostly down to the fact of his history of inconsistency and as there is no stat for this in the game we keep him one below his ability. If Pinot repeats his great climbing ability in this year's TDF then he will clearly be on the top stat but I won't hold my breath, as there is a good chance he will not be on top form, crash, get ill or the weather doesn't suit him (even though it should be less hot) or some other issue but we'll know shortly.
Tafiolmo wrote:
We've mentioned a number of times why Pinot is not on the top mtn stat. It's mostly down to the fact of his history of inconsistency and as there is no stat for this in the game we keep him one below his ability. If Pinot repeats his great climbing ability in this year's TDF then he will clearly be on the top stat but I won't hold my breath, as there is a good chance he will not be on top form, crash, get ill or the weather doesn't suit him (even though it should be less hot) or some other issue but we'll know shortly.
Savage, but true.
Would it work if he had the best MTN but had a crappy recovery? Like 75-ish?
The game says that recovery affects daily form. It would make sense that he'd get worse and worse after two weeks. That's why he always gets tired, sick or injured during the third week.
