I just can't stand Steam.
I had the WDB 19 running when some hickup on my PC needed me to force stop it. Resulting in that when I opened PCM18 after rebooting I had lost WorldDB 19 as a selection. This happened once on FM some years ago.
It's shit. Now heaven knows what going on with these buggers at Steam. Middlemen out to get extra money. If you ask I tell you they stink.
FYI the contents under my steam library is just gone. So the DB I had running when my PC crahsed got fucked up and taken out one way or another. Very strange but still if it hadn't been a steam shitcase it would have been in the same place. Your DB2018 with all other DBs are still there, only the one I was running at the moment.
Now you know why in the past have said Steam is shit. It intervene in areas it shouldn't IMHO.
Still I better get it down again somehow. It looks to be a very good DB. Credit to you Benji, but your views on steam is far far away from mine.
And don't come and talk about illegal DL. I payed as always and just was "forced" to sub on you r DBs. This doesn't happens with DBs like pcmdailys I can assure you.
clamel wrote:
I just can't stand Steam.
I had the WDB 19 running when some hickup on my PC needed me to force stop it. Resulting in that when I opened PCM18 after rebooting I had lost WorldDB 19 as a selection. This happened once on FM some years ago.
It's shit. Now heaven knows what going on with these buggers at Steam. Middlemen out to get extra money. If you ask I tell you they stink.
FYI the contents under my steam library is just gone. So the DB I had running when my PC crahsed got fucked up and taken out one way or another. Very strange but still if it hadn't been a steam shitcase it would have been in the same place. Your DB2018 with all other DBs are still there, only the one I was running at the moment.
Now you know why in the past have said Steam is shit. It intervene in areas it shouldn't IMHO.
Still I better get it down again somehow. It looks to be a very good DB. Credit to you Benji, but your views on steam is far far away from mine.
And don't come and talk about illegal DL. I payed as always and just was "forced" to sub on you r DBs. This doesn't happens with DBs like pcmdailys I can assure you.
It's easily accessible for the players and I don't stab our friends at Cyanide in the back by making it downloadable for everyone (includes more pirates than you'd expect). For me it's a win-win on all areas.
Initially I founded the db to have a quickly installed db for my followers on YouTube to play the sae way I do. Steam Workshop was perfect for that and somehow it grew to the most popular database for Pro Cycling Manager. I won't complain about it.
The only relatively active forum at the moment is Le Gruppetto so I wouldn't see the point in releasing a forum-based db anymore. Definitely if it doesn't get any website maintenance and/or bugfixes, like PCMDaily at the moment. Steam is way more of a trustworthy platform for creators at this point.
First of all, I apologize in advance for my bad English.
For a DB to play a run for a short time, the workshop is sufficient. But if you want the DB to be as realistic as possible, then you can't use the workshop. Things like equipment, new countries, regions and much more are not going to be shared in the workshop. Unfortunately the WorldDB only scratches the surface of the possible. If the WT is still halfway ok, then the PCT is already strongly neglected. I don't want to start with the CT teams. New records entries, the Palmares from 2018 etc, that's missing completely with your DB. Yes, it takes a long time to create something like that, I know, I've done it several times already, but it looks a bit more real. Your team members should take a little more time. Only many teams add with stats that are far away from reality, you don't make a good DB. Of course the bugfixing in the workshop is much easier than with a Forum DB. our update 3 is almost finished and fixes all reported bugs. And added so much more to the DB than you could ever do over the workshop. even if you could.
Of course you have to reckon with a ForumDB that also people who didn't buy the game will download the DB. But what should you do about it? Don't create a DB? Create another workshop DB that doesn't exploit the potential of the game? The easiest way would be to allow Steam or Cyanide to share all files. But as long as this is not possible, probably never will be, you can't get around a Forum DB.
But by what were the many PCM forums made so flat. The workshop was to blame for that. Nobody had to be more active in one of the numerous forums. One could load oneself now everything comfortably and anonymously from the Workshop. No one showed more interest in creativity. Only very few create new jerseys, even fewer new races. If this continues, many users will soon scream for current DBs, but there won't be anyone left to do it. And there won't be anyone left who can use the stage editor or create jerseys. In this case you support the slow die of this series.
Lofkvist wrote:
First of all, I apologize in advance for my bad English.
For a DB to play a run for a short time, the workshop is sufficient. But if you want the DB to be as realistic as possible, then you can't use the workshop. Things like equipment, new countries, regions and much more are not going to be shared in the workshop. Unfortunately the WorldDB only scratches the surface of the possible. If the WT is still halfway ok, then the PCT is already strongly neglected. I don't want to start with the CT teams. New records entries, the Palmares from 2018 etc, that's missing completely with your DB. Yes, it takes a long time to create something like that, I know, I've done it several times already, but it looks a bit more real. Your team members should take a little more time. Only many teams add with stats that are far away from reality, you don't make a good DB. Of course the bugfixing in the workshop is much easier than with a Forum DB. our update 3 is almost finished and fixes all reported bugs. And added so much more to the DB than you could ever do over the workshop. even if you could.
Of course you have to reckon with a ForumDB that also people who didn't buy the game will download the DB. But what should you do about it? Don't create a DB? Create another workshop DB that doesn't exploit the potential of the game? The easiest way would be to allow Steam or Cyanide to share all files. But as long as this is not possible, probably never will be, you can't get around a Forum DB.
But by what were the many PCM forums made so flat. The workshop was to blame for that. Nobody had to be more active in one of the numerous forums. One could load oneself now everything comfortably and anonymously from the Workshop. No one showed more interest in creativity. Only very few create new jerseys, even fewer new races. If this continues, many users will soon scream for current DBs, but there won't be anyone left to do it. And there won't be anyone left who can use the stage editor or create jerseys. In this case you support the slow die of this series.
No worries about the English, mate. We can't expect everyone to speak fluent English if it's not his/her mother tongue. Also keep in mind that in no way I want to offend anyone, I'm just defending my views and values here in the same way you have.
Your initial point is pretty much a personal opinion yet factually incorrect. We promote direct use of the PACK ITA equipment with the WorldDB since it works perfectly together. We won't take it on ourselves as long as we don't feel like we have the capabilities of doing so.
I requested new countries to be added to the game and will be talking about modding necessities (equipment, startlists, xml files) through the workshop next week in conversation with the game designer of Pro Cycling Manager. If you have anything to add, you are welcome to say.
Our world tour attributes are not "half-way". I'm proud to say the team made them as good as it gets. I thoroughly respect any other databases. I think you work on the Daily one, but I'm not exactly sure? If so, I have a few remarks on rider attribute matrices being wrong. I just don't go around to the suggestions page to make the Daily database look bad because I respect the work that is put in. (Slight roast, sorry. But I felt like you deserved it here. )
Palmares of 2018 is indeed missing, 100% correct. It's on our todo lists but we've been addressing player suggestions over the long list of things we'd like to have done that didn't happen due to just not having time. Nobody has really cared so far as people don't see it as a really important feature in a database. Nonetheless, if the team or I had more time, it would have been worth doing. On that note, you're always welcome to do them with us.
I respect the way you like to exploit the potential of the game. We try and do so by doing a lot of things other databases haven't dared to do, but seem to make races 10x more realistic. You'd be surprised by the hacks and workarounds we have pulled off so far, that you haven't noticed yet.
In general, a workshop database is more marketable hence is more used. It's easier for YouTubers to link a Steam workshop item than a guide to install the Daily database.
- Easily accessible is the #1 goal for the WorldDB. Hence why we aren't off-Steam.
- Current stats is also very important as we have a shorter lifespan for attributes than for example the Daily DB. We focused mostly on the last 1.5 years and take a slight bit of data from years before according to each individual rider while most other databases use longer ranges. People like this a lot which also makes us have more players.
- Realism of WT is also very important, and we've gotten great at that. I betted 25€ throughout the Giro and made 232€ while mainly using WorldDB stage winners. A side note: AI and scale obviously spoils this for a lot of databases as well. Put 2 corners in the last 1 km and you have a random winner.
- Our communication in all communities is a real winner when it comes to marketing the db. YouTube is the biggest platform for Pro Cycling Manager so having a YouTuber use a database will obviously boost databases a lot.
Your update 3 is indeed almost ready, but it's June. Like 80% of the players go over to 2019 soon while a lot just stopped playing months ago. You obviously want to finish it. Our concept is in its bases a full-time beta version. We can never complete a DB because a DB can not be completed. Every race can invalidate rider stats. Hence we just release an early version and build onto that as much as we can until the new game/new year arrives. People like it that way. What they don't like is having to wait.
"But what should you do about it? Don't create a DB?"
No, but as a community you could invest more time into communicating with other communities. PCMDaily was once an amazing place although I never felt very welcomed since I was seen as "just one of those silly YouTubers". Now it's a graveyard due to the overwhelming demand for instant messaging communities. Hence why PCMWorld is now one of the largest communities, if not the largest. Btw, there are shirt and stage makers in most communities outside of Daily too.
"In this case you support the slow die of this series."
Don't take this as bragging, just defending myself since I do take offense to this. In the last 4 years:
- I co-founded one of the largest Pro Cycling Manager communities (PCMWorld).
- I founded the most popular database for the game currently used by over 25K users, obviously now together with an amazing team that does way more than me at this point. At the moment, I'm more or less the person doing the communication.
- I organised the first official eSports event on PCM with a UCI registered team backing it.
- I created a "silly" youtube channel focused around the PCM series watched by 100 000 people every month.
I invest roughly 50% of my free time into contributing to make this community better little by little. So I disagree about "killing the series".
Anyway, still respect you as a person. Edited by BenjiNaesen on 16-06-2019 18:56
Of course I fully respect the work and effort you put into your DB. Stats attributes are subjective values, but I doubt if you should change them after every run. Everybody can run a bad race, even the stars of the scene. But to punish them afterwards with lower values reflects for me only ignorance before the sport. Or today's quickly unmarried time. If you think so, then that's your understanding of sport, it's not mine.
Of course you have 25K downloads, I grant you that too, but do these people all play with the DB? Many, many me too, have loaded your DB just to give me an impression. But I don't play. Yes, you're right about your assumption that I'm part of the great PCMDaily DB team. Originally I come from the small German RSMNews Community. But also there is to be noticed that less and less people are active.
Of course I also know the forum LeGrupetto from France. But also there you notice the loss of members. But there are at least still people there who are able to create a jersey or to create a race. But an own DB doesn't come from there any more.
Also the Benelux people are not very active anymore. The Spaniards and Portuguese too. Since I am over 10 years loyal fan of the PCM series, of it about 6-7 as a DB creator, I know of course (almost) all larger forums. And everywhere there is the big forest extinction by fewer and fewer members and contributions.
Your discord Chanel is too shallow for me. 90% of the contributions are irrelevant and without level. But that's the way today's youth is. There I come with my antique age of 42 years already quite overtaxed which the sentence formation concerns, if times which creative is thereby, and there I feel like a stranger. Especially after you kicked me for 3 days for no reason. That's what I call totalism of the admin who only want to hear what they like. Sorry, but that must also be said.
For the attributes of the individual drivers of our DB I have no competence, people from different countries take over that. People who know the drivers better than I ever could. To judge only by the results of the last year seems too frivolous to me.
If and how the admin of PCMDaily can communicate with other communities, I don't know because I am only a small cog in the DB team.
Whether a forum based community can survive the next year depends mainly on the game itself. Unfortunately the innovations on the part of Cyanide become less and less, so that it is not really worthwhile to invest a lot of money into an update every year. Your community doesn't notice much of this at the moment, but with each new version of the game, which is not a significant improvement, it will affect you. I don't wish it for you or for us in the forums. By the way, a few real frames from the CymITA addon are not yet a real improvement.
It was an honor to argue with you here. I wish you much success with your DB for the 19 PCM and a bit more depth then please.
Of course I fully respect the work and effort you put into your DB. Stats attributes are subjective values, but I doubt if you should change them after every run. Everybody can run a bad race, even the stars of the scene. But to punish them afterwards with lower values reflects for me only ignorance before the sport. Or today's quickly unmarried time. If you think so, then that's your understanding of sport, it's not mine.
Of course you have 25K downloads, I grant you that too, but do these people all play with the DB? Many, many me too, have loaded your DB just to give me an impression. But I don't play. Yes, you're right about your assumption that I'm part of the great PCMDaily DB team. Originally I come from the small German RSMNews Community. But also there is to be noticed that less and less people are active.
Of course I also know the forum LeGrupetto from France. But also there you notice the loss of members. But there are at least still people there who are able to create a jersey or to create a race. But an own DB doesn't come from there any more.
Also the Benelux people are not very active anymore. The Spaniards and Portuguese too. Since I am over 10 years loyal fan of the PCM series, of it about 6-7 as a DB creator, I know of course (almost) all larger forums. And everywhere there is the big forest extinction by fewer and fewer members and contributions.
Your discord Chanel is too shallow for me. 90% of the contributions are irrelevant and without level. But that's the way today's youth is. There I come with my antique age of 42 years already quite overtaxed which the sentence formation concerns, if times which creative is thereby, and there I feel like a stranger. Especially after you kicked me for 3 days for no reason. That's what I call totalism of the admin who only want to hear what they like. Sorry, but that must also be said.
For the attributes of the individual drivers of our DB I have no competence, people from different countries take over that. People who know the drivers better than I ever could. To judge only by the results of the last year seems too frivolous to me.
If and how the admin of PCMDaily can communicate with other communities, I don't know because I am only a small cog in the DB team.
Whether a forum based community can survive the next year depends mainly on the game itself. Unfortunately the innovations on the part of Cyanide become less and less, so that it is not really worthwhile to invest a lot of money into an update every year. Your community doesn't notice much of this at the moment, but with each new version of the game, which is not a significant improvement, it will affect you. I don't wish it for you or for us in the forums. By the way, a few real frames from the CymITA addon are not yet a real improvement.
It was an honor to argue with you here. I wish you much success with your DB for the 19 PCM and a bit more depth then please.
We don't actually change attributes after every run, but for example if a Carapaz is at 78 MO and then wins the Giro, we can't just leave him there. Or an Asgreen who just became a tank overnight during the winter and rides very consistent results. Those are tweaks we like to update. Or the Imhof rider in Suisse.
About the shallow contributions, very correct. But I'm usually in about 12 Discord's and 4 forums now to take suggestions and surprisingly a lot of good suggestions arrive. We have a long todo-list but obviously don't go into the "VAN DER POEL 85 MO" hype train suggestions.
From the 25K, that's subscriptions, so current installed, not technically "downloads" since a user making a download and having removed it doesn't count. A lot of players actively use the database, more than I personally ever expected. I obviously can't just randomly say X amount of people since I don't have those analytics. I just know I once missclicked during an update to the workshop and Cyanide was being blamed for a bug I made Fixed it the day itself but I then realized how important my acts were. I can't just remove a shirt out of the database in an update since that might break someone's custom career.
About the forums, PCMSpain now has a very active Discord server instead of their usual forum and it seems to really go well. I forced Focus/Benelux to make the move and they seem to have an active Discord server now aswell. Italy too. Portugal seems to have always been quite small but I often see them flying through random communities.
Yes, there's an extinction but many different places are taking over in different formats.
If you were kicked, I'm 99% sure I did have a reason. We have since reset the banned users to give them a second chance so you're welcome to give that a try again, according to the rules of course. We have a set of rules and those define what happens according to them. We've never abused power just because we want to.
We also don't judge single-handedly of the last year, which I explained in my previous message. It's just that we can't keep a Quintana as an 82 MO rider at the moment just because he was great in the past and such. Basic things like that.
There are not enough updates in PCM, everyone agrees. In all communities. But there's nothing we can do about it because I can in no way leave the series for that. Mainly because I know a few of the developers quite personally and know that they all want more to be done but don't get enough days to develop assigned to them.
Anyway, good luck with life Edited by BenjiNaesen on 17-06-2019 20:22
____________________________________________
)
