Knockout's CT Prediction
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knockout |
Posted on 19-10-2017 11:32
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Grand Tour Champion
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Knockout's CT Prediction 2017
Welcome to my own CT prediction. Before showing you my prediction I would like to explain the thoughts behind my method. Having done previews in the past and enjoying reading previews of others there are two issues with most previews in my mind:
1. You don't see the quality gaps between teams. Many previews present only the final rank prediction. That is fine and i am already happy about anything but it only tells you a part of the story. Often predictors will have a couple of teams that look just about equally strong with close to no difference in between.
Whether they put a certain team at e.g. 3. or 7. can look like a rather big difference but the creator might see them as basically similar strong likely seperated by 50 or 100 points while the 2. and 3. team might be seperated by a huge gap of 200 points in the mind of the creator. Those gaps are very interesting to see imo but only few prediction format can show them. Jandal shows them a bit by grouping teams into different categories and Marco shows them with a difference in "some artificial Team-OVR" but I'm looking for a better visable gap indicator.
2. Many predictions expect teams to follow a certain team building guideline to get a good ranking predictions. Like: "You need one super good main leader, bonus points if it's a climber. You also need another at least sub-top leader in every terrain. All of them need at least one good lieutenant. etc.". I am a firm believer that quality is quality. You don't have to follow traditional thinking to make a good team. You can be succesful by simply having only many sub-top riders, you can focus on one or two terrains only and be succesful (see Gazelle, Strava, Evonik or 2014 Euskaltel). But the most important point is the quality you have in your team. |
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knockout |
Posted on 19-10-2017 11:32
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Grand Tour Champion
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I've tried to implement these two thoughts into a formula. I feel like OVR is already a very good indicator for the quality of a rider and better than every improvised formula i could come up with so i came up with a formula that directly translates the overall of a rider into expected points. This formula comes straight from the 2016 final rankings of the division. I adjusted the formula for the stat inflation. Based on that these are the top 3 expected point scorers (=highest OVR):
Robin van der Hugenhaben | 440 expected points | Ryan Eastman | 421 expected points | Jaime Suaza | 381 expected points |
Adding the best 15 riders (=min number needed) of each team together leads to the pure-OVR based prediction. Every rider over that limit would reduce the RDs used of the better rider so I decided to ignore them to have a fair basis to treat the different teams. (it can be a great help in some situation to have an additional specialized helper but in most cases it doesnt matter much whether #15 or #16 is the filler in the race)
This is the pure-OVR based prediction:
Don't use this one for comparisons of predictions. Use the ones from the matrix!
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters!
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knockout |
Posted on 19-10-2017 11:33
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7735
Joined: 21-12-2010
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I then went through the list of riders and adjusted expected points of many riders based on how i rate their stats and how well they performed in 2016 (measured in points). That were especially downgrades for one dimensional climbers without acceleration and 76-78 sprinters and upgrades for versatile riders like Bille, low AVG TTers like Stannard and other underrated riders like Chavanne. This step was fully suspective and since i basically looked over every rider the influence of the original formula was widely reduced but is only used as a baseline for my grading of better riders and as a grade for lesser rider. The result is a list of expected points for each rider.
I think of gained points of a rider in a season as a statistical random variable that (if we played a season often enough) would be distributed randomly around the expectated points with a certain variance. For this preview I assumed a Gaussian distribution eventhough that's obviously not really the ideal case but it is simple and good enough to work for a model like this. The variance depends on the highest main stat so that a TTist will have a higher variance than a puncheur. I didnt looked into the numbers in detail but simply put in numbers based on my gut feeling. One example: I chose 160 points for Gabriel Chavanne as expected points and a standard deviation of 48. Therefore, he has a 99% chance of scoring at least 48 points, a 90% chance of scoring at least 98 points, a 50% chance of scoring at least 160 points, a 10 % chance of scoring at least 221 points and a 1% chance of scoring at least 271 points in any given season.
I then simulated 400 seasons based on these numbers to see how likely each team is to finish in a certain spot of the rankings. The results are seen in the matrix posted below. How to read the chart:
Place = The predicted finishing position as seen in all other predictions. This should be used to compare my method with other predictions for a fair comparison.
AVG = Average finishing position of 400 simulations
1 = Observed probability to finish 1st
...
So e.g. In-n-Out finished 56% of simulations as division winner and 21,3% as runner-up. Worst result in 400 simulations was a 7th place finish.
Please note: I haven't adjusted anything for the new calendar because i havent looked at the calendar too much and don't know yet how much the expected points should change. I also didnt looked at any announced race planning information to change the numbers. These numbers should simply be seen as an idea for expected finish, best case and worst case instead of any real realistic numbers.
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters!
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knockout |
Posted on 19-10-2017 11:33
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7735
Joined: 21-12-2010
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- You can post now -
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters!
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Booker |
Posted on 19-10-2017 11:59
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Really interesting analysis knockout! And it certainly highlights the parity among the teams projected from 2-7. Could be a very interesting fight for the automatic promotion places.
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Croatia14 |
Posted on 19-10-2017 12:18
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Directeur Sportif
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Finally the amazing knockout preview! Great job!
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Vien |
Posted on 19-10-2017 12:35
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Small Tour Specialist
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That was a really interesting read. Hope the season will be as close as you predict. I'd be satisfied with 8th or 9th for sure. Great job knockout! |
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sutty68 |
Posted on 19-10-2017 13:11
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Tour de France Champion
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Liking this prediction much better |
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Ad Bot |
Posted on 23-11-2024 20:47
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Tamijo |
Posted on 19-10-2017 13:46
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"Make Campari Stronger" no wait thats a strange slogan
Always interesting and fun to read predictions, although you tend you want for from your own team
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sammyt93 |
Posted on 19-10-2017 15:10
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Classics Specialist
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I love the fact we could finish 2nd, but not 3rd or 4th, it seems close between 8th-11th so hopefully my planning can make us win that battle as it would be a little disappointing to only match last year considering I think we have strengthened compared to last season.
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jandal7 |
Posted on 19-10-2017 20:55
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World Champion
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Fantastic work knockout, very interesting data that I will keep coming back to for a while 6th is nice for us, but nice to know we're more likely to come 4th
24/02/21 - kandesbunzler said “I don't drink famous people."
15/08/22 - SotD said "Your [jandal's] humour is overrated"
11/06/24 - knockout said "Winning is fine I guess. Truth be told this felt completely unimportant."
[ICL] Santos-Euskadi | [PT] Xero Racing
5x x5
2x x2
2x x2
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knockout |
Posted on 19-10-2017 22:05
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7735
Joined: 21-12-2010
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Thanks guys
Booker - Those six teams are so close together that i have no idea who i would put second in a subjective prediction. Will certainly be interesting to watch.
Croatia - Thanks for the feedback throughout the creation process. It's been a while since i first presented you the idea
Vien - Your team is hard to predict. I have massively downgraded those one stat wonders but Maxime Monfort, Winner Anacona, Julien Simon, Cameron Meyer and Bob Schoonbroodt is still a good group of leaders and could lead you to a lower top ten finish.
sutty - Your season will depend a lot on how Suaza performs. He will basically decide on his own where you will finish
Tamijo - I know how it is to be underrated in predictions - have been in every season so far Looking at my tables I could have given some of your riders higher values so it is well possible that you outperform the predictions. Race planning is very important for maximising points as well so with a good planning you could outperform a few team predicted above
sammyt - I'm sure that if i made more simulations you would also have finished 3rd or 4th some times. I looked into the simulation where you finished 2nd and it's a very interesting one. All top teams had a way-below-average season.
1. In-n-Out 1540
2. Sauber 1484
3. Azteca 1470
3. World Cycling Center 1470
5. Xero 1484
5 teams have an higher expected points than 1484 with Azteca and Xero only slightly below and mostly you needed 17xx to finish second. That you could finish 2nd with 1484 points is a very rare occurance.
jandal - Based on the prediction each of the top 7 teams are more likely to directly promote than not
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters!
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AbhishekLFC |
Posted on 20-10-2017 05:52
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Incredible work Knockout . Wouldn't expect anything less. Would take 4th place every day and then some!
Interesting how the prediction often puts a higher percentage of finishing in other positions than the average. For us, both 3rd and 5th are more likely then our predicted finish. 6th is equally likely (which is my own predicted finish for us)!
Having bounced my ideas off you while coming up with my predictions, I'm not really surprised to see your calculation basis. Funny you took Gaeten Bille as an example, because my predictions rate him as a top 10 scorer this time. Unlikely, but maths likes consistency I guess.
Thank you for the read
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weirdskyfan64 |
Posted on 20-10-2017 06:37
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What a fantastic preview. Very interesting to see I have a 1.6% chance of finishing in the top five, but a 1% chance of finishing where I did last year.
Disclaimer- Most of my posts are me thinking aloud. And most of what I think is rubbish.
Winner of a FIFA Prediction Fair Play Award (a phrase becoming increasingly ironic)
"... Because he (me) has a sound tactical mind in general..." jandal7, at 9:30 am GMT on 12th May 2016
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matt17br |
Posted on 20-10-2017 12:34
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Directeur Sportif
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Predictions have been getting more and more elaborate every season, love how you've thought the final rankings out.
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sutty68 |
Posted on 20-10-2017 12:39
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Tour de France Champion
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knockout wrote :
sutty - Your season will depend a lot on how Suaza performs. He will basically decide on his own where you will finish
He needs to be wrapped up in cotton wool me thinks |
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maxime86 |
Posted on 20-10-2017 14:22
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Classics Specialist
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Very cool and interesting prediction knockout, however, I dont really think us winning the CT is as big of a probability as you've outlined here.
I think Azteca is also massively underrated, but then again thats just my opinion |
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DaveTwoBob |
Posted on 20-10-2017 16:46
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Small Tour Specialist
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Some really cool number crunching giving a great feel for the possible spread of results, love it.
Also different results aren't wrong, just unlikely
Would love to know how likely it is for Kraftwerk to finish in the top 10 of PCT <hint>
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knockout |
Posted on 20-10-2017 17:48
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Grand Tour Champion
Posts: 7735
Joined: 21-12-2010
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Abishek - Having fewer 4th than 3rd and 5th place for your team is probably tied to the still "relatively low" number of simulations (400). Had i done more simulations that would probably look slightly different but i only have so much calculating capacity on my seven year old laptop
Bille wasnt really a random pick but i picked him with his strong 2016 season in mind as a good example. Based on the OVR he would have been on less than 70 points while he scored 229 points last season so i went with something in between for the prediction
weirdskyfan - thanks
matt - yeah, although i wish we would read more classic team by team written analysis instead of everyone trying to get a better model to predict the ranking
sutty - but only until the mountains, otherwise he cannot use his acceleration
maxime - Based on one of your recent HQ update listing top riders per terrain you have the best hill and TT riders and a top 3 sprinter. You also have Bar, Kruopis, Kreuziger and Kratochvila who i all rate fairly high. That makes you the #1 favourite in my opinion. Whether that probability is 35%, 56% or 77% wasnt really the point of my prediction but the point was: You clearly are a big step ahead of the other teams and have the highest probability to win the rankings.
Not sure why you say that Azteca is "massively underrated" when i have them clearly as one of the 2-7 teams that are seperated by very little. I don't think they should be much ahead of the other 5 teams in that group. Yes, their leader duo of Eastman and Chavez is very impressive and Squire is a great third man and that trio make them look strong on first glance but what else do they have? Medicore climbing domestiques with obvious flaws (acc, hi,...), no TTer, two cobblers who won't score, two sprinters who won't score. Imo there is nobody else on the team that has 100+ expected points and that is not enough to be rated much higher than were they are (also just my opinion )
Dave - Thanks. Giving an idea of the possible spreads was one of the main goals i tried to transport so it's great that it does that
Hint understood but i won't promise anything
A Big Thank You To All MG Reporters!
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Paul23 |
Posted on 20-10-2017 18:26
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Fuck. I apparently didn't pay you enough
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